The Best Movies You’ve Never Seen podcast – Presumed Innocent

Podcast: Best Movies You’ve Never Seen

Episode: Presumed Innocent

Published: 19 June 2026

Hosts: Stephen Fenech & Trevor Long

[00:01:44] Stephen Fenech: Hello and welcome to The Best Movies You’ve Never Seen, our movie podcast. My name is Stephen Fenech and I’m the person who comes up with the movies to show Trevor Long, my co-host, to watch for the very first time. That’s the whole premise of the show. Trevor’s watched now, what, 214 movies?

[00:02:02] Trevor Long: I’m basically, you know, Hollywood authenticated.

[00:02:05] Stephen Fenech: But not only is it Trevor that probably hasn’t seen these movies before, it’s a lot of you guys.

[00:02:10] Trevor Long: Millions of people.

[00:02:10] Stephen Fenech: A lot of our audience haven’t seen these as well.

[00:02:11] Trevor Long: Are young like me.

[00:02:13] Stephen Fenech: Especially older films that we get into, including this one. I call it old, it was released in 1990. And of course I’m talking about Presumed Innocent. Now warning, there is some explicit language in the audio, not from us, but from the audio that we’ll be playing. It was released in 1990. So that’s, that’s 36 years old.

[00:02:34] Movie Audio: Wow.

[00:02:34] Stephen Fenech: So it’s, you think about—

[00:02:35] Trevor Long: It’s a long time ago now.

[00:02:36] Stephen Fenech: That’s actually, yeah, 99 years old now. Starring Harrison Ford, Greta Scarci, Raul Julia.

[00:02:43] Trevor Long: Scarci or Scarci?

[00:02:44] Stephen Fenech: Scarci, Scarci, is it?

[00:02:46] Trevor Long: I think it’s Scarci.

[00:02:47] Stephen Fenech: Raul Julia, and directed by Alan J. Pakula. Now get this, one, the producer of the film was Sidney Pollack, who’s a famous director. Or sometimes actor as well. Before the book was released, the book was released on August 6th, 1987. And I remember this was a massive release. And I remember reading this book as well at the time. Sidney Pollack purchased the rights for the film before the book was released for, in 1987, $1 million.

[00:03:20] Trevor Long: $1 million?

[00:03:22] Stephen Fenech: $1 million, yeah. Bit off the powers there.

[00:03:25] Trevor Long: Okay.

[00:03:25] Stephen Fenech: Dr. Evil, I think is the name. But yeah, a million bucks. And get this too, Paul Winfield. Now Paul Winfield is the actor who plays the judge, Judge Little, in the movie. Now he read the novel in the ’80s, in the late ’80s, and loved it. Told his agent, he said, “Mate, if ever this is made into a movie, I want to be the judge.” Wow. Right? So a few years later, movie’s in pre-production. He’s really pushed hard for the role. Impressed Alan J. Pakula, the director, who said, “Righto, come and audition.” And boom, was cast in the movie.

[00:04:04] Trevor Long: Wow.

[00:04:04] Stephen Fenech: How’s that for projecting what you want? That’s amazing.

[00:04:07] Trevor Long: That’s a vision board kind of stuff. Oprah would be proud.

[00:04:10] Stephen Fenech: Ryder, had you heard of this, seen this, what’s your impressions here? What happened?

[00:04:14] Trevor Long: I got nothing. Yeah, no, I’m coming in 100% blind on this one.

[00:04:18] Stephen Fenech: And so you knew though the cast was pretty solid, so.

[00:04:20] Trevor Long: Well, I mean, Harrison Ford, it’s gonna be a good movie, right? I honestly, Did you know it was a presumed innocence?

[00:04:26] Stephen Fenech: Did you assume it was a legal?

[00:04:27] Trevor Long: I assumed it was a legal show. But I don’t think there’s many of these other actors I recognize.

[00:04:33] Stephen Fenech: Yeah.

[00:04:34] Trevor Long: Yeah, I just, I mean, I could get a fleeting—

[00:04:37] Stephen Fenech: Francesca Chillemi was in another film we did.

[00:04:38] Trevor Long: Yeah, I know the name.

[00:04:40] Stephen Fenech: A while ago.

[00:04:40] Trevor Long: But I wouldn’t pick her in a lineup.

[00:04:42] Stephen Fenech: Her daughter’s in now acting now. Her daughter, I can’t remember her name, but she’s—

[00:04:45] Trevor Long: But what I’m saying is Harrison Ford’s the one that I recognize everyone else. But I assume these are good names because Harrison Ford’s in it.

[00:04:51] Stephen Fenech: Absolutely right. Our mate Roger Ebert.

[00:04:55] Movie Audio: Rog.

[00:04:56] Stephen Fenech: 3.5 stars out of 4. Yeah, out of 4. That’s 3.5 stars. That’s solid. Here’s what he said. I’ll just give you a little overview here. Pakula has made film versions of difficult books before. Sophie’s Choice, All the President’s Men are among his credits. This time his challenge was to avoid getting bogged down in the marshes of circumstantial and forensic evidence, which make good reading but can expand into interminable movie dialogue. The adaptation of Turow’s novel does a good job of presenting the evidence as needed and no more than is needed, while allowing time for the characters to establish themselves. The lead performance by Harrison Ford must have been a delicate balancing act, since at every point he must seem plausible both as a killer and as an innocent man. Ford’s taciturn and undemonstrative acting style is well suited to the challenge. Greta Skarki is well cast too as the heartless Caroline Palamas, so warm and yet so cold. The Bonnie Bedelia performance as the wife is another a tricky challenge since she too must be ambiguous throughout. And the supporting performance include Paul Winfield as a judge with hidden motives, Raul Julia as a defense attorney who can’t get his client to stop acting like a lawyer, and Dennehy expansive and yet with a wall of flint when it comes to saving his own skin. There’s been summer— this has been a summer of loud movies, of explosions, of gunfire, screams, and crashes. Presumed Innocent is a very quiet movie, brooding and secretive, about people who are good at masking their emotions. The audience I was with watched it with a hush. Part of the quiet was due to the absorbing nature of the story, I suppose, but a lot of it may have been caused by people reflecting, as I always do during stories like this, that there but for the grace of God go we. Roger, he’s a great writer.

[00:06:46] Trevor Long: You know what I love about that review? I love the idea of telling me how it was received. Do you know what I mean?

[00:06:52] Stephen Fenech: Like when he watched it?

[00:06:54] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:06:54] Trevor Long: With a hush. Because it doesn’t matter if he was in a room with 3 others as a screening or 300. There you go. It’s still descriptive.

[00:07:01] Movie Audio: Fantastic.

[00:07:02] Trevor Long: Very nice.

[00:07:03] Stephen Fenech: Radio, this is your last exit before the freeway. We’re gonna take a deep dive into Presumed Innocent. If you haven’t seen it, you can catch it on Fetch.

[00:07:11] Trevor Long: The best for everyday streaming and essential entertainment. You can get it all on Fetch from $3.99 a month, which allows you to get access to 30 free-to-air channels for free, 25 lifestyle and entertainment channels, all the streaming apps, 30 on-demand movies every single month with no ads, another 11,000 movies and 800 TV shows available to rent or buy. There’s interactive games. Universal voice search, which is brilliant because this is a great example of a movie that wasn’t available to rent or buy on Fetch, but it was available on Prime. And so I was sent directly into the Prime app to launch and watch this movie because Fetch knew I had a subscription. It was available, it was there to watch. So along with the 11,000 movies in the movie and TV store, there are thousands more in the streaming apps you know and love. Log into everything on Fetch and you’ll find a whole world of entertainment in one remote. Great, easy to use multi-room. If you can, if you want, you can have multiple Fetches in your home and share content across them, including the Fetch Mighty, which can record content and be viewed across all your Fetch devices and your mobile as well. Check it out, and for more information, head to fetchtv.com.au.

[00:08:17] Stephen Fenech: Righto, you have now watched Presuming. Is it— I did get my proof of life image of the opening frame, so I’m thinking, okay, he’s watching the movie. Yep.

[00:08:26] Trevor Long: And, uh, it was like, it was like the, the juror’s seat.

[00:08:29] Stephen Fenech: It was like, he knows what I’m watching right at the start or right at the end.

[00:08:32] Trevor Long: I’m not re-watching 12 Angry Men, so, you know.

[00:08:34] Stephen Fenech: There you have it.

[00:08:35] Trevor Long: It could have been that.

[00:08:36] Stephen Fenech: So what are your— don’t tell us everything, but your first impressions.

[00:08:39] Trevor Long: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot to unpack with this movie through the run-through and in my final summary, but I think you could easily guess that I enjoy this movie because Law Order is on the television right now.

[00:08:49] Stephen Fenech: I see that.

[00:08:49] Trevor Long: In the room.

[00:08:49] Stephen Fenech: It’s like a glorified Law Order.

[00:08:51] Trevor Long: Yeah, and so I’ve always enjoyed courtroom drama TV, so I imagine I could get sunk in a really deep hole of courtroom drama movies as well. We’ve done some others, but yeah, this was enjoyable. Harrison Ford Ford is a strange cat because he has a— I’ve watched him in interviews and this, his demeanor in this movie is him. He’s, it’s very kind of placid the way, I don’t know, just the way he talks and the way he delivers is very Harrison Ford. I really enjoy his style. And you know, this is the great thing about this story is that it evolves all the way through.

[00:09:27] Stephen Fenech: Oh yeah, keeps you guessing.

[00:09:28] Trevor Long: It’s not just a good movie. It’s not just a, you know, criminal justice system. Yes. It’s a solid story.

[00:09:34] Stephen Fenech: And your social media post?

[00:09:36] Trevor Long: If you’ve not seen Presumed Innocent, this is basically a movie-length episode of Law Order, but more detailed with an even better cast and some fantastic twists to keep you keen. Great performance by Harrison Ford.

[00:09:48] Movie Audio: Very good.

[00:09:48] Stephen Fenech: I saw this at the movies. This was a massive release.

[00:09:51] Trevor Long: Really?

[00:09:52] Stephen Fenech: Because the book was such a bestseller.

[00:09:54] Trevor Long: Right.

[00:09:54] Stephen Fenech: And I devoured the book. Scott Turow is the author. He was kind of like a John Grisham type writer.

[00:10:01] Trevor Long: Oh, okay.

[00:10:01] Stephen Fenech: So Scott Turow, yeah, this was a huge release, not only as a book but also as a movie. And I saw it with my then steady girlfriend, Jo.

[00:10:10] Movie Audio: Oi!

[00:10:11] Stephen Fenech: We’ve been together for, I think, 3 years at this point.

[00:10:13] Trevor Long: And now you’re grandparents.

[00:10:15] Stephen Fenech: And now we’re grandparents, grandparents, that’s right. So I can remember it was a huge release at the time. Rewatched it a few times. I own it on, I don’t think I’ve got it, I’ve got it on Blu-ray. I haven’t got it on 4K.

[00:10:25] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:10:25] Stephen Fenech: I try to get everything on 4K if I can, but—

[00:10:27] Trevor Long: Of course.

[00:10:27] Stephen Fenech: But no, been seeing this this many times, and you know what, still surprises me. Really?

[00:10:33] Trevor Long: Still surprises me. Well, I was thinking—

[00:10:35] Stephen Fenech: Deeper appreciation of it.

[00:10:37] Trevor Long: We’ll unpack it as we go, but I can absolutely imagine rewatching this 2 or 3 times and seeing more, looking at through different angles and characters.

[00:10:47] Movie Audio: Correct.

[00:10:47] Stephen Fenech: Let’s talk about the cast. Of course, Harrison Ford plays Rusty Sabich, and of course he is Indiana Jones, he’s in Star Wars, Air Force One, Blade Runner, The Fugitive, Witness. He’s got quite an impressive list of films.

[00:11:03] Trevor Long: Yeah, we haven’t done The Fugitive, have we?

[00:11:04] Movie Audio: No.

[00:11:05] Trevor Long: That’s the Tommy Lee.

[00:11:05] Stephen Fenech: We’ve done Air Force One and we’ve done Star Wars: Raiders of the Galaxy.

[00:11:09] Movie Audio: Fugitive is Tommy Lee.

[00:11:09] Stephen Fenech: Fugitive is Officer Tommy Lee.

[00:11:11] Trevor Long: Yeah, I’ve seen that.

[00:11:12] Stephen Fenech: That’s on our list. Yeah, let’s do it. Our massive list. Bump it up the list. It’s on. Yeah, I get a lot of encouragement actually from listeners who suggesting movies now. It’s good.

[00:11:21] Trevor Long: Because they, like me, don’t believe the list is complete.

[00:11:23] Stephen Fenech: There was one actually, we had a really nice review on the podcast, on the Apple Podcast. And the guy, I forget his name, but he was saying, “Oh, I guess I’m up till late at night listening to your shows. I can’t get enough.” And he had a list of movies that he wanted us to do. And the first movie, if he’s listening, his first movie was The Time Machine. I said, “Mate, I’ve got news for you. The 1960 Time Machine, we’ve done it.” So the Rod Taylor Time Machine, we’ve already done that.

[00:11:50] Trevor Long: I remember it anyway.

[00:11:52] Stephen Fenech: Greta Skarki plays Carolyn Polemas, and she was in, we’ve done this, The Player. Remember that movie with Tim Robbins about— he plays the Hollywood executive. It’s like, oh yeah, look behind sort of Hollywood.

[00:12:03] Trevor Long: Yep.

[00:12:03] Stephen Fenech: Uh, she was also in Emma and another movie called Shattered. Raul Julia plays Sandy Stern. Uh, he was in The Addams Family and Addams Family the sequel, uh, Street Fighter. He was in The Rookie and in Havana, I think, opposite Robert Redford. Uh, died sadly in 1994, aged 54.

[00:12:24] Trevor Long: Wow.

[00:12:25] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Bonnie Bedelia plays Barbara Sabbich, that’s Harrison Ford’s wife.

[00:12:30] Movie Audio: Yep.

[00:12:31] Stephen Fenech: And she was in famously Die Hard and Die Hard 2. Remember she was John McClane’s wife?

[00:12:37] Movie Audio: Oh yeah.

[00:12:39] Stephen Fenech: In Die Hard, remember? It’s in Nakatomi, remember she was a high-powered executive at Nakatomi?

[00:12:43] Trevor Long: She seemed familiar, yes.

[00:12:44] Movie Audio: Yes.

[00:12:44] Trevor Long: There you go.

[00:12:45] Stephen Fenech: She’s also in a Stephen King adaptation of Needful Things.

[00:12:48] Trevor Long: Right.

[00:12:49] Stephen Fenech: Did you recognize John Spencer? Leo McGarry.

[00:12:53] Movie Audio: Yes.

[00:12:54] Stephen Fenech: I’m like, oh, so young too.

[00:12:55] Trevor Long: He was too. Also West Wing.

[00:12:57] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Dan Lipinski.

[00:12:58] Trevor Long: There’s another one in here, isn’t there?

[00:13:00] Stephen Fenech: There is.

[00:13:00] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:13:00] Stephen Fenech: Well, there’s him.

[00:13:01] Trevor Long: And Bradley Whitford.

[00:13:02] Stephen Fenech: Bradley Whitford. And also their young, their son in the movie is named Jesse something and he plays a young intern in the series as well.

[00:13:12] Trevor Long: Does he really?

[00:13:12] Stephen Fenech: Yes, he does.

[00:13:13] Trevor Long: Yeah. I did not know that.

[00:13:14] Stephen Fenech: When he grows up.

[00:13:14] Trevor Long: Wow.

[00:13:15] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. So John Spencer was of course in The West Wing, was in Copland, which we’ve done. War Games, which we’ve done, and The Rock, which we’ve done.

[00:13:23] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:13:23] Stephen Fenech: We’re a fan of John Saxon.

[00:13:25] Trevor Long: Yeah, we’re big fans.

[00:13:26] Stephen Fenech: Passed away in 2005, age 58.

[00:13:29] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:13:30] Stephen Fenech: He died, yeah. And Brian Dennehy plays Raymond Horgan. He was in First Blood.

[00:13:35] Trevor Long: See, he I recognized big time. First Blood.

[00:13:37] Stephen Fenech: Yep. He was in Cocoon and Silverado, and he passed away in 2020, age 81. And then of course there was Bradley Whitford and a few other, Paul Winfield plays the judge. Quite a cast.

[00:13:50] Trevor Long: Yeah. And look, as I said, I don’t, I don’t see it as a highly recognizable cast, but that’s for me being an idiot.

[00:13:56] Stephen Fenech: But I—

[00:13:57] Trevor Long: Solid ensemble. I respect the ensemble that it is.

[00:13:59] Stephen Fenech: Most definitely. Before we get to the run through, let’s have a chat about Hisense, our other great sponsor. And Hisense aren’t just known for their great TVs and their mini RGB TVs. They also have a tremendous range of projectors. If you want to enjoy the big screen experience, their new XR10 is their triple laser projector, can project an image up to 300 inches. Now that’s a big screen if you ask me. If you’ve got the room, why not? Now this is a pro-level projector, I’ll tell you. So this is 6,000 ANSI lumens. It’s got an optical zoom as well, so you can set it up in quite a small space and still enjoy a massive picture with— thanks to the lens shift and the other tech on board. It does, uh, offer up to the 300-inch projection size, as I suggested, and it’s fully 4K Beautiful quality, also has speakers on board and not just any old speakers, Devallier speakers. Is that how you say it? Devallier?

[00:14:56] Trevor Long: I think it is, yeah.

[00:14:57] Stephen Fenech: French company, so I’m assuming that that’s how you pronounce it, but their speakers are amazing and also on board the projector as well. So it’s an all-in-one solution that you can, and it’s small enough to carry around the house. It’s about the size of a 4-slice toaster. So you can pick this up and take it into another room. If you wanna set it up like me, like permanently, you can mount this on the ceiling and this is a pro-level projector. Projector that would— that just provides a tremendous experience. So really great quality, really good audio, and just that big cinema-like experience at home. Check out the XR10 projector from Hisense at hisense.com.au.

[00:15:35] Trevor Long: Boom!

[00:15:36] Stephen Fenech: The movie starts, uh, in— I think it was at the shot you sent me, the early— the, the opening frame.

[00:15:41] Trevor Long: Very slow run of credits over the jury box.

[00:15:44] Stephen Fenech: This sort of slow zoom on an empty jury box, and we hear this little voiceover.

[00:15:49] Movie Audio: I am a prosecutor. I’m a part of the business of accusing, judging, and punishing. I explore the evidence of a crime and determine who is charged, who is brought to this room to be tried before his peers. I present my evidence to the jury and they deliberate upon it. They must determine what really happened. If they cannot, we will not know if the accused deserves to be freed or should be punished. If they cannot find the truth, what is our hope of justice?

[00:16:38] Stephen Fenech: Interesting.

[00:16:40] Trevor Long: Mm.

[00:16:41] Stephen Fenech: And, uh, The movie opens with Rusty arriving at his office and told the boss wants to see him, but there was an envelope shoved under the door. Now it was from, did you notice closely? It said from the office of Carol and Polemus.

[00:16:56] Movie Audio: Yep.

[00:16:56] Stephen Fenech: And it read in capital letters, “Stop it, I know it’s you.” Yeah. So immediately there’s intrigue.

[00:17:02] Trevor Long: You’re thinking, what’s going on here?

[00:17:03] Stephen Fenech: What’s happening here? So he goes up to see his boss, which is District Attorney Raymond Hogan, which is played by Brian Dennehy.

[00:17:09] Trevor Long: Yep.

[00:17:10] Stephen Fenech: He’s in the middle of a reelection campaign against his political rival, Nico De La Guardia. Now Rusty is then told about what happened to his colleague, Carolyn Polemus.

[00:17:22] Movie Audio: Carolyn Polemus was murdered last night. Her cleaning lady found the body this morning. Some creep got into her place somehow and strangled her.

[00:17:31] Stephen Fenech: It looks like she was raped. He tied her up, he beat her, somebody stabbed her with some kind of instrument and strangled her.

[00:17:38] Movie Audio: No weapon.

[00:17:40] Movie Audio: No sign of forced entry.

[00:17:42] Movie Audio: Unless you want me here, I’m supposed to meet the coroner. No, that’s all right.

[00:17:45] Movie Audio: Go on, get out.

[00:17:48] Movie Audio: I can hear De La Guardia now. Raymond Horgan can’t protect his own prosecuting attorneys. How the hell is he gonna protect an average citizen? Tommy Molto’s secretary said he wasn’t coming in today. Some fucking acting head of homicide he turned out to be, That little creep. Should have fired him when we fired Niko instead of handing him his job. If I had any balls, I’d do it now. Rusty, I want you to handle this case personally.

[00:18:12] Movie Audio: Raymond, I got the office. I’ll assign somebody.

[00:18:14] Movie Audio: Well, who the hell are you gonna assign it to? Homicide? Tommy Molto, for Christ’s sake? And DellaGuardia would just love that. Molto would tip him off on everything we get. Miserable guinea bastards. They’re so close, you can see Molto’s nose sticking out of Niko’s belly button.

[00:18:27] Stephen Fenech: [LAUGHTER] So that is a really good line. That was an extended bit of audio there because it gives you a good snapshot of the players that are involved and the stakes.

[00:18:36] Trevor Long: It’s also a critical moment because he’s asked or demanded that he takes the job.

[00:18:41] Stephen Fenech: You do it. And later on— Which comes up later. Later on he denies that. But Rusty, you know, we know the landscape. You know, there’s election going on. We know who the opponents are. Rusty accepts—

[00:18:53] Trevor Long: Begrudgingly. Yeah, he doesn’t let everything go here because we find out at this point that he’s holding back a very big secret.

[00:19:01] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, we find out later. I don’t think we know—

[00:19:04] Trevor Long: We don’t know right now.

[00:19:04] Stephen Fenech: Fully then that he does.

[00:19:05] Trevor Long: Do you think this is the moment he should have said something?

[00:19:07] Movie Audio: Obviously.

[00:19:08] Stephen Fenech: He maybe should have volunteered that information, but Horgan has ordered him to personally head the investigation. Now what he does afterwards, he goes into her office and fires up her computer and he sees that there is a B file case number in the system.

[00:19:22] Trevor Long: Which also stands out ’cause all the other files, all the other case numbers are different.

[00:19:27] Stephen Fenech: They’re different, old letters and everything.

[00:19:27] Trevor Long: Nice old computer, obviously, the old ’90s computer. Minutes to fire up a bunch of things.

[00:19:32] Stephen Fenech: But he says it’s— the file case number is in the system, but the actual file is missing. So, um, Lip Branza, who is his investigator, has crime scene photos. It’s pretty gruesome. She’s bound in ropes, sexually assaulted, and was bludgeoned to death.

[00:19:48] Movie Audio: What do you have here?

[00:19:49] Movie Audio: A bunch of pictures of a dead lady.

[00:19:51] Movie Audio: No weapon found yet? Nada.

[00:19:53] Movie Audio: It’s a weird one. She was strangled by the ropes, but look at the way he tied her. It’s Like he put himself between her legs, and when he pumped, they all tightened up like he was trying to let his weight strangle her. It’s all slipknotted. I mean, that he was sort of trying to fuck her to death. Look at the next one.

[00:20:14] Movie Audio: Check the state computer on the sex offenders and see if we can cross-match on Carolyn’s name with this business with the ropes. Find out which of the creeps she put away is out on parole.

[00:20:27] Movie Audio: I never did understand why you put a broad like that in charge of rape and all that sicko shit.

[00:20:33] Movie Audio: She wanted it. And she was good.

[00:20:36] Movie Audio: Eh, too good, maybe. Just— I’m not grabbing this yet. Now, you work with this broad. She’s not gonna leave her fucking door, the windows wide open. And she was drinking with him. She gave him a glass of beer like she was entertaining him.

[00:20:50] Movie Audio: Fingerprints on the glass?

[00:20:52] Movie Audio: Yeah, Greer sent it down to the lab.

[00:20:55] Movie Audio: So what are you figuring? Somebody she let in and opened the windows to make it look like a break-in?

[00:20:59] Movie Audio: She’s not gonna let some sex maniac she sent to jail in for a beer.

[00:21:04] Movie Audio: On the other hand, we’re talking Carolyn.

[00:21:08] Stephen Fenech: So a lot to unpack there too. Lip Branza was actually brought in. Greer was the other investigator and Harrison Ford, or the Rusty, said, look, I prefer, I want Lip to handle it.

[00:21:20] Trevor Long: He wants his guy.

[00:21:21] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, that’s his man.

[00:21:22] Trevor Long: But again, all these little tiny things don’t seem consequential, but then they allow you to have more things to question as the movie gets to its crescendo.

[00:21:32] Stephen Fenech: Now at home, Rusty’s wife, Barbara, Bonnie Bedelia, is aware obviously of his infidelity in the past.

[00:21:39] Trevor Long: As we kind of find out at this point that she knows that he had an affair.

[00:21:43] Stephen Fenech: She knows what happened and they’re listening to the news broadcast about it. And she reacts with a really cold, biding resentment when she learns that Rusty is handling the case.

[00:21:55] Movie Audio: So Dan LaPranza and Rusty Savage will work night and day for the next 2 weeks and catch Raymond the killer. At least that’s the strategy.

[00:22:03] Movie Audio: You’re in charge of this investigation?

[00:22:07] Movie Audio: Raymond insisted I take it on.

[00:22:10] Movie Audio: There are 150 lawyers down there. They couldn’t find one that didn’t fuck her to put in charge? Did you tell Raymond? This is a conflict of interest. Is that professional?

[00:22:26] Movie Audio: Barbara, I’m Raymond’s chief deputy.

[00:22:29] Movie Audio: You are so predictable. It’s your way of reliving the whole thing. She’s dead and you’re still obsessing.

[00:22:39] Trevor Long: Yeah, she seems over the affair.

[00:22:40] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, she’s, uh, you know, there’s a bit of sensitivity still there. Yeah, and Um, yeah, we’ll talk more about her later. Uh, over lunch in a bar, Lip meets up with Rusty and talks about the forensic investigation.

[00:22:54] Movie Audio: See, Painless says normally he would see some of the guy’s little thingies swimming upstream in the womb when he looked under the microscope. Instead, this guy’s was all dead. Nothing went nowhere. So Painless figures this guy is sterile. He got blood type A. All right.

[00:23:10] Movie Audio: My very own. Mm.

[00:23:12] Movie Audio: I thought of that. But you got a case.

[00:23:16] Movie Audio: Anything from hair and fiber?

[00:23:19] Movie Audio: No hair or skin fragments under her nails.

[00:23:21] Movie Audio: Carolyn would’ve fought back.

[00:23:22] Movie Audio: Maybe she was playing sex games with the wrong guy. Well, the rope is, uh, Kmart, Sears, Walgreens, you name it. And they found carpet fibers from some other location, a Zorak V. It’s only their biggest seller. Did you call the fingerprint lab on the bar glass?

[00:23:39] Movie Audio: Oh, I forgot.

[00:23:40] Movie Audio: God, you are a Class A fuck-up, you know? They ain’t gonna expedite it for me. Oh, I got the phone company printout of her apartment.

[00:23:50] Movie Audio: Yeah?

[00:23:51] Movie Audio: I noticed as I’m going through there that one of the numbers that comes up there is yours a number of times.

[00:23:56] Movie Audio: At the office. We’re working cases together.

[00:23:58] Movie Audio: No, she’s calling your home.

[00:24:03] Movie Audio: She never called me at home. I made these calls to Barbara from Carolyn’s apartment.

[00:24:11] Movie Audio: Ooh.

[00:24:13] Movie Audio: Late again, kid. This trial’s a bitch. I catch dinner in town. I’d just as soon you let it go. Hmm? Barbara sees a phone company subpoena now, she’s gonna bust a gasket.

[00:24:29] Stephen Fenech: Sketchy. Still not, are you like at this point—

[00:24:33] Trevor Long: Sketchy.

[00:24:33] Stephen Fenech: Are you thinking, did he have an affair with her?

[00:24:35] Trevor Long: Sketchy.

[00:24:35] Stephen Fenech: Yeah.

[00:24:36] Trevor Long: Well, no, I know he had an affair with her. We know that now.

[00:24:38] Stephen Fenech: It’s on the COVID of the movie, innit? Like you see that on the thumbnail is him on top of her.

[00:24:42] Trevor Long: Yeah, but don’t we— In the background. Well, we already know ’cause the wife’s already told us that.

[00:24:45] Stephen Fenech: Well, I know that, but like he hasn’t admitted it to anyone else yet.

[00:24:48] Trevor Long: No, no, no.

[00:24:48] Stephen Fenech: Not to his colleagues.

[00:24:49] Trevor Long: But as a viewer, I’m like, whoa, bro, this is all a bit suspicious.

[00:24:52] Stephen Fenech: Calls there. It’s really well done building up the suspicion.

[00:24:56] Trevor Long: ‘Cause it’s all just little bits.

[00:24:57] Stephen Fenech: All signs point to him.

[00:24:57] Trevor Long: It’s all just little bits. Yeah.

[00:25:00] Stephen Fenech: Rusty is later asked how wide he wants to go with the fingerprint check.

[00:25:07] Movie Audio: They wanna know how big a field you wanna run against. We could do convicted felons, anybody who’s ever been fingerprinted, county employees, shit like that.

[00:25:14] Movie Audio: Just do felons. We’ll do the rest if we need ’em later.

[00:25:18] Movie Audio: Do ’em all. God knows when I can get back on. Do everybody.

[00:25:21] Movie Audio: How soon?

[00:25:23] Movie Audio: What the fuck takes a week? The man’s running the biggest murder investigation in the city. He’s got to kiss your ring? I know. I know. We don’t have jurisdiction over the computer.

[00:25:37] Movie Audio: Yeah. A week.

[00:25:40] Movie Audio: Probably 10 days.

[00:25:41] Movie Audio: I need him yesterday.

[00:25:43] Movie Audio: I’ll push, but I don’t think you’ll see him any sooner. And have your copper get that glass back from evidence and take it down to the lab in case they need it for anything.

[00:25:51] Stephen Fenech: It’s really good how they’re sprinkling little things in, like the fingerprint, the glass.

[00:25:55] Trevor Long: He’s lazy, he forgot to do the fingerprint, but he’s down there now. At least he’s asking for it, but he doesn’t really seem stressed that this glass is missing.

[00:26:02] Stephen Fenech: But interesting too, another thing that comes back to bite him too is he initially suggested just felons, and then the black guys are, “Do everyone.” “Well, we might as well do everyone,” which includes county employees, which would be himself. Rusty goes to the morgue to see the coroner, this Doc, what, Dr. Kuma guy, I think, whatever his name is. And yeah, they have to be careful. Confused by all this. Strange, yeah.

[00:26:25] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:26:26] Movie Audio: See anything with bruises on the wrists? Bruises on the ankles? Bruises on the knees?

[00:26:31] Movie Audio: Are you saying that you think that she was raped and then tied up?

[00:26:34] Movie Audio: Tied up last, yeah. She already died from multiple head injuries.

[00:26:39] Movie Audio: Rape?

[00:26:40] Movie Audio: Now I’m thinking no.

[00:26:43] Movie Audio: Why?

[00:26:45] Stephen Fenech: Read the fucking report.

[00:26:46] Movie Audio: This report?

[00:26:47] Stephen Fenech: No, no, no, no.

[00:26:48] Movie Audio: This report, the chemist report.

[00:26:51] Movie Audio: Yeah, the chemist report. She had a 2% solution of nonoxynil in her vagina, a spermicidal jelly used with a diaphragm. That’s why the guy’s sperms were all dead.

[00:27:01] Movie Audio: Diaphragm? You missed a diaphragm in the autopsy?

[00:27:04] Movie Audio: Fuck, no. You’ve been to autopsies, you slice her wide open, no diaphragm in that lady.

[00:27:10] Movie Audio: Well, what happened to it?

[00:27:11] Movie Audio: Somebody took it.

[00:27:14] Movie Audio: Jesus.

[00:27:16] Movie Audio: I think it’s a setup. This man is her lover who comes over. They have drinks. This lady has intercourse with him. Real nice, okay? But he’s an angry guy. Picks up something, kills her, tries to make it look like rape. Ties her up, pulls out the diaphragm. That’s what I think.

[00:27:39] Movie Audio: What does Tommy Molto think?

[00:27:43] Movie Audio: Hmm?

[00:27:44] Movie Audio: Oh, got his phone number right there. Wanna jot it down in case you need to get in touch with him?

[00:27:49] Movie Audio: Oh, Tommy.

[00:27:50] Movie Audio: Listen, next time you talk to him, tell him to give me a call so I can find out what’s going on in my own fucking investigation.

[00:27:56] Stephen Fenech: Oh, so we hear more of this later, but it’s obvious that he’s somehow mates with Molto.

[00:28:04] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:28:04] Stephen Fenech: And he’s sort of giving him—

[00:28:05] Trevor Long: He basically got these factions.

[00:28:07] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. And picked up very well by Rusty, but also too, which report? This report? This report? No, the chemist report.

[00:28:16] Trevor Long: So that also comes into play later as well. That forensic doctor there, he actually gets a decent part of the story right.

[00:28:25] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:28:26] Trevor Long: It’s just some small parts of it that go wrong. And so yeah, he’s, if followed correctly, that could have led to something more fruitful for them.

[00:28:35] Stephen Fenech: But anyway, that’s what happens. Now it’s the eve of the election and Horrigan has a Rusty catch-up. He’s asked for an update on the case.

[00:28:47] Movie Audio: So tell me, who’s our bad guy?

[00:28:50] Movie Audio: Could be a boyfriend, some guy she picked up. Whoever it is knew enough about her to know what to make it look like. Could be a law enforcement type.

[00:29:02] Movie Audio: One of us.

[00:29:07] Movie Audio: You and Carolyn have a thing?

[00:29:09] Movie Audio: Well, don’t beat around the bush, Rusty. I mean, just come right out and ask the question.

[00:29:13] Movie Audio: Ah.

[00:29:16] Movie Audio: Well, why don’t I say that the decedent and I were both single and both adults. Yeah, I had a thing with her. She thought like everybody else thought. I wasn’t gonna run again. I could just hand the mantle over to anyone I chose, so—

[00:29:34] Stephen Fenech: why not abroad? Why not her?

[00:29:39] Movie Audio: One more question?

[00:29:41] Movie Audio: I gave her the B file because she asked me for it. Because I was fucking her.

[00:29:50] Movie Audio: Stupid, huh?

[00:29:53] Movie Audio: She, uh, she went over to Northside and she shoveled through the records and, uh, there wasn’t anything there. At least that’s what she told me.

[00:30:07] Stephen Fenech: So the intrigue is building here.

[00:30:09] Trevor Long: Yes, it’s beautiful. Now it’s kind of splitting out now, all these different lines of thought that you need to follow this movie along.

[00:30:15] Stephen Fenech: You know what, the structure of this is like, you know, you’re putting out all your chess pieces and you put them in place and then You could watch this movie and just pay attention to the B-file part. Yeah.

[00:30:25] Trevor Long: You could watch this movie and just look at Rusty and his wife. You know what I mean? You could watch this movie through different lenses and understand it so much better each time.

[00:30:33] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, different viewpoints.

[00:30:34] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Stephen Fenech: But it’s, but what I like about it is it’s nothing, it’s still understandable. Like there are some movies of this type that are really confusing plots.

[00:30:42] Trevor Long: Well, I’ll tell you as a first-time viewer, I was a bit confused by who some of the characters were, like the investigator and the Della Blake. Like it was, you couldn’t quite work out who they were. ’cause I don’t attach names quick enough. So like the first time you see them and stuff, you don’t know. So it took me a little bit to follow some of what was going on, which is why I wouldn’t mind seeing it again, basically.

[00:31:02] Stephen Fenech: Now there are some flashbacks as well.

[00:31:04] Trevor Long: Yeah, I feel like this flashback is set so that we understand how the affair came about. I don’t think it’s entirely necessary. It just shows—

[00:31:10] Stephen Fenech: I think it is. No, I think it is.

[00:31:12] Trevor Long: I think it just shows that she’s a passionate lawyer.

[00:31:14] Stephen Fenech: Shows that, well, he was—

[00:31:16] Trevor Long: And she can manipulate the hell out of people.

[00:31:17] Stephen Fenech: She’s a career gal for sure. So the flashback shows in this one, the first one, Rusty meets her for the first time and they work together together on a case about an abused child. Now this is when they grow close and after they win the case, they begin their torrid affair.

[00:31:34] Trevor Long: Hmm.

[00:31:35] Stephen Fenech: Now meanwhile, Ray Horgan has lost the election to Della Guardia. So the power has instantly shifted. Tommy Molto, which is a disgruntled former colleague, has joined Della Guardia’s campaign and steps in as a new chief deputy. So basically taken over from what Rusty used to be. But Malto immediately begins, remember how he had contact with the forensic guy?

[00:32:00] Trevor Long: The coroner.

[00:32:01] Stephen Fenech: The coroner. He begins digging into how Rusty handled the case and senses a coverup.

[00:32:07] Movie Audio: Malto and DeLay have raised some questions about the Paul Hemis investigation.

[00:32:14] Movie Audio: This should not be handled this way. You should speak with Rusty alone.

[00:32:20] Movie Audio: What’s this about?

[00:32:22] Movie Audio: It’s about the fact that you were in Carolyn’s apartment the night she was killed.

[00:32:25] Movie Audio: Bullshit. What was that, a Tuesday night? Barbara was at the university. I was babysitting.

[00:32:33] Movie Audio: Rusty, for your own sake, keep your fucking mouth shut. We’ve got the fingerprint results. The ones you could never remember to ask for. And they’re your prints all over the bar glass. Yours, Rosette K. Savage. 5 feet from where the woman was found dead. Or maybe you didn’t remember that all county employees get printed.

[00:32:55] Movie Audio: This is absurd.

[00:32:59] Movie Audio: And the phone records that you told the paramedic not to get. We had the phone company pull them this morning. You were calling her all month. There’s a call from your house to hers that night.

[00:33:11] Movie Audio: You’re serious. Savage!

[00:33:16] Stephen Fenech: Savage! Tommy, for Christ’s sake!

[00:33:19] Movie Audio: Savage!

[00:33:20] Movie Audio: I want you to know one thing, Savage. I know.

[00:33:22] Movie Audio: Sure you do.

[00:33:23] Stephen Fenech: Go ahead, play cool.

[00:33:24] Movie Audio: I know you killed her. You’re the guy.

[00:33:28] Movie Audio: Yeah, you’re right. You’re always right.

[00:33:34] Stephen Fenech: Interesting response there. What did you think there? Uh, all the, the evidence, which we’ll— I’ll go through. I’ve got a little list of all the stuff that we’re going to talk about in the court. But, um, uh, what did you think about that where they’re— they suddenly now he’s just—

[00:33:49] Trevor Long: he’s the main— fingerprints on the glass is the kicker, right?

[00:33:51] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, it’s like, holy shit. But he said, hey, that was a Tuesday, it wasn’t— he sort of denied it. And you’re thinking, well, who’s telling the truth here?

[00:33:57] Trevor Long: Well, I, I’m not believing Rusty at this point because the evidence at this point is not looking good for him. Yeah, which is what he knows. And he says that to Della and he says it to his wife.

[00:34:09] Stephen Fenech: Now, now there’s another flashback scene here, pretty, uh, Pretty— a lot to see here. Rusty and Carolyn are together in bed and discussing succession plans for the district.

[00:34:21] Trevor Long: This is the exposé of her true career-driven status.

[00:34:26] Movie Audio: Rusty, if you let him know you want it, it’ll be you.

[00:34:31] Movie Audio: I should just go and tell Raymond his time is up.

[00:34:34] Movie Audio: Or you could be tactful.

[00:34:36] Movie Audio: No.

[00:34:37] Movie Audio: Why not?

[00:34:38] Movie Audio: I’m not gonna bite that hand. If Raymond wants out, that’s up to him. He’s still the best candidate around up against Téleguardia.

[00:34:48] Movie Audio: Without Raymond, Niko doesn’t have an issue. You pull the party people and Raymond’s people together behind somebody else, that person would walk into the PA’s office.

[00:34:59] Movie Audio: Wouldn’t be close. You’ve thought a lot about this. You’ve thought a lot about this, haven’t you?

[00:35:06] Movie Audio: He just needs a push.

[00:35:11] Movie Audio: Push him yourself.

[00:35:12] Stephen Fenech: It’s not in me. See changes here.

[00:35:17] Movie Audio: What? Were you all set on being chief deputy? Carolyn. All right. If I can get away tonight, should I get some, uh, some takeout?

[00:35:30] Movie Audio: I like you, Rusty, but I think it’s over.

[00:35:33] Movie Audio: What?

[00:35:34] Stephen Fenech: She’s brushed him.

[00:35:34] Movie Audio: You’re not right for me now. It’s over.

[00:35:37] Movie Audio: I don’t accept that.

[00:35:38] Movie Audio: You don’t accept it? Well, do I have a say? Come on. I don’t want us to end up enemies.

[00:35:46] Stephen Fenech: So as soon as he wouldn’t help her, she brushed him. Yeah. So again, career gal.

[00:35:52] Trevor Long: She was doing it for the ladder.

[00:35:54] Stephen Fenech: Right. Now I do have my interjection here. It’s called a point of order.

[00:35:58] Trevor Long: That’s okay, I’ll accept that one.

[00:36:00] Stephen Fenech: Point of order, uh, Greta Scarkey, after the film, after it was released, she said, look, having sex with Harrison Ford might be okay, it might be a female fantasy, but she found that there was a little bit more skin shown that she thought was going to be shown. She, her quote, some little trick happened with the camera angles and there was more nudity than I would have liked. She says.

[00:36:27] Trevor Long: So yeah, I mean, you were there.

[00:36:30] Stephen Fenech: Well, that’s what she said. Wow. Now, uh, there’s a scene here too where Rusty’s hanging outside her apartment. So he’s brushed— she’s brushed him. He’s hanging outside her apartment. We watch her entering her apartment with another man, and he’s sort of, you know, obviously being a little— we don’t know, probably rage of jealousy that going on there.

[00:36:48] Trevor Long: Uh, next up, the investigators turn up and execute a search warrant of Rusty’s Yeah, but this is fascinating because the wife here actually says to him, what are they searching for?

[00:37:00] Stephen Fenech: Point of order.

[00:37:01] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:37:01] Stephen Fenech: Your Honor, when the search warrant is executed, Barbara specifically asks, are you looking for the murder weapon?

[00:37:09] Trevor Long: Which is irrelevant at this point, but very relevant at the very end of the movie.

[00:37:15] Stephen Fenech: There we find it now.

[00:37:16] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:37:16] Stephen Fenech: Rusty just knows he needs a lawyer. He meets with Sandy Stern.

[00:37:21] Trevor Long: It’s cool because he, in this, I’m assuming this audio, he basically says, mate, I’ve been working against, I am a prosecutor. There’s defense attorneys, I see them every day. You’re the guy.

[00:37:33] Movie Audio: I realize that you would like to avoid public places at a time like this, but I don’t think it’s wise for you to go into hiding. I’m flattered that you want me to represent you in this matter. You have been my um, toughest adversary.

[00:37:50] Movie Audio: Did you get my, uh, subpoena from the grand jury this morning?

[00:37:54] Movie Audio: Clearly, we will not let you testify.

[00:37:59] Movie Audio: Sandy, you expect me to take the Fifth Amendment?

[00:38:02] Stephen Fenech: Of course.

[00:38:05] Movie Audio: Well, that I cannot do.

[00:38:07] Movie Audio: You don’t want to prepare the prosecutor by giving him pre-trial statements, do you?

[00:38:12] Movie Audio: Sandy, I don’t think this case is I’m never gonna go to trial. But if I take 5 and refuse to testify before the grand jury, it could destroy my reputation.

[00:38:24] Movie Audio: The results of the blood test have come back, and they have identified you as someone who secretes A-type antibodies, just like the man who had last been with Miss Polemis. Chances of this being a coincidence are 1 in 10. Therefore, I believe you will be charged, and that indeed, you will go to trial.

[00:38:40] Movie Audio: Do you have anything you want to tell this grand jury concerning the death of Carolyn Polhemus?

[00:38:45] Movie Audio: On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer.

[00:38:48] Movie Audio: Wouldn’t it be fair to say, Mr. Savage, that you were rather well acquainted with Miss Polhemus?

[00:38:52] Movie Audio: On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer.

[00:38:55] Movie Audio: Weren’t you in fact intimate with the lady?

[00:38:59] Movie Audio: On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer.

[00:39:02] Stephen Fenech: Now, uh, I’ll get another point of order here. You hear him pleading the Fifth, right? Takes the Fifth. “On advice of counsel, I choose not to answer.” Yeah. This is during a grand jury inquiry. Now, this is— the film is set in the state of Michigan.

[00:39:18] Trevor Long: Right.

[00:39:19] Stephen Fenech: Which uses preliminary hearings, not grand juries to determine whether there’s enough evidence to try a defendant.

[00:39:27] Trevor Long: Wow.

[00:39:28] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. So he couldn’t have pled the Fifth. He would’ve been a proper hearing, not a grand jury, right? Yeah. Uh, anyway, next up, he gets arrested. Stripped of his authority and deeply compromised, Rusty formally arrested and indicted for the murder—

[00:39:42] Trevor Long: It’s on—

[00:39:43] Stephen Fenech: —of Carolyn Polamis. Now let’s just recap the evidence, right? Here’s the new regime. Uncovers the damning forensic evidence. The killer’s blood type is A, matching Rusty’s. Semen analysis reveals only dead sperm. Rusty had a vasectomy. Vasectomy, apparently.

[00:39:58] Trevor Long: Do we think— where do we learn that?

[00:39:59] Stephen Fenech: I don’t— well, this was— yeah, I don’t think— no, did he? No, he— but no, no, his investigator said he’s had a kid. He might have had a vasectomy in the meantime. But anyway, Rusty’s fingerprints are identified on a glass found at Carolyn’s apartment. Phone records show a flurry of calls from Rusty’s house to Carolyn’s on the night of the murder. So it’s not good. Circumstantial— there’s even physical evidence. Uh, now Rusty has to Sandy, and Rusty also outlines— he— this is really good how he outlines how he thinks they are going to prosecute him.

[00:40:38] Movie Audio: Savage is obsessed with—

[00:40:40] Trevor Long: Yeah, this is great.

[00:40:41] Movie Audio: She ditches him for another man, and his wife’s in the room too. It becomes enraged. He can’t let go. One night, knowing his wife will be going out, he calls her up, begs her to see him again. Carolyn finally agrees. She rolls around with him for a little lang syne, but then something goes wrong. Savage is jealous. He wants more than she’s willing to give. He blows it, gives her what for with some heavy instrument, decides to make it look like rape. Savage is a prosecutor. This way, he knows there’ll be dozens of suspects. So he ties her up, opens the latches to make it look like someone slipped in. Mm-hmm. And this is the diabolical part. Pulls out her diaphragm so it looks like rape. But in his haste and confusion, he makes mistakes. He forgets the glass he drank from. He doesn’t think the forensic chemist will be able to ID the spermicide. But we know he did evil to this woman because he lied about his presence in her apartment on the night she was killed. His fingerprints on the glass. His blood type A identified from semen. Fibers from the carpets in his home tell us he was there.

[00:41:53] Movie Audio: Very convincing.

[00:41:56] Movie Audio: But their evidence of motive is weak.

[00:41:58] Movie Audio: There’s where we must attack. Is there any proof of prior amorous relationship between the defendant and the decedent?

[00:42:05] Movie Audio: Just a few telephone calls.

[00:42:06] Movie Audio: That can be accounted for by business needs. Any diary?

[00:42:09] Movie Audio: No.

[00:42:10] Movie Audio: No note that came with flowers? No lover’s card? —correspondence?

[00:42:13] Movie Audio: No.

[00:42:13] Movie Audio: Good. Gossip will not be admitted.

[00:42:17] Movie Audio: Very good.

[00:42:18] Stephen Fenech: Strong. Pretty— but isn’t that interesting, the summary about himself and how they’re gonna do it?

[00:42:22] Trevor Long: That’s what— I mean, every defense lawyer would love to have a prosecutor present to them how the case might lay out.

[00:42:28] Stephen Fenech: There you go. It’s a lawyer— lawyer be on trial.

[00:42:31] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:42:32] Stephen Fenech: Here’s a really interesting one where they approach Horgan. Now he’s now working—

[00:42:36] Trevor Long: Because they find out he’s on the witness list for the other— for the prosecutor.

[00:42:41] Stephen Fenech: But he’s former DA, so he’s working now for— He’s now an private practice. They approach him to get a— to get a sense of how he’s going to testify.

[00:42:50] Trevor Long: And this is where it turns.

[00:42:51] Movie Audio: I was wondering what we might expect in terms of your testimony.

[00:42:56] Movie Audio: I’m going to testify about Rusty’s conduct of the Paul Hemos investigation, how he volunteered to handle it.

[00:43:02] Movie Audio: Just a second, Raymond. You insisted I take it on.

[00:43:06] Movie Audio: I don’t remember it that way, Rusty.

[00:43:08] Movie Audio: Raymond, what are you trying to do to me?

[00:43:10] Movie Audio: What am I trying to do to you? What are you trying to do to me? I thought I had your loyalty. Why didn’t you tell me about you and Carolyn?

[00:43:21] Movie Audio: Raymond, under the circumstances, I have to advise Rusty not to respond. Clearly, he would like to.

[00:43:29] Movie Audio: Well, let me ask you something, counselor. What the hell were his fingerprints doing all over that goddamn glass? So that’s what I’m gonna testify. He wanted the case. I had to chew his ass repeatedly to get him to move on it. He seemed a lot more interested in if, when, and how I was fucking Carolyn Paul Hemis than in his own investigation. And when push finally came to shove, he stood there in my office, he gave us all some happy horseshit. He’d been nowhere near her apartment the night she was killed. That’s what I’m gonna testify. —And I’ll be goddamn pleased to do it.

[00:44:03] Movie Audio: How can you? How can you think that I could do a thing like that?

[00:44:08] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Now my question here is, what benefit for him to suddenly turn around on him like that?

[00:44:16] Trevor Long: To be honest, I was thinking that listening to it going, well, hang on a minute. I mean, why is he just turning on him? ‘Cause he thinks the evidence is gonna show that he murdered her?

[00:44:25] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:44:25] Trevor Long: Like why would he not just say, no, I forced him to take the case ’cause he’s my best attorney.

[00:44:29] Stephen Fenech: He was the one who was number 2. Why?

[00:44:31] Trevor Long: Yeah. Doesn’t make any sense.

[00:44:32] Stephen Fenech: Look, ’cause don’t forget this B file still floating around, right? This B file. So is it, could you, did you think perhaps that that’s had something to do with that? ‘Cause that was the thing that hung over the whole trial.

[00:44:45] Trevor Long: Yes. And I’ll say to you this, the B file never fully made sense to me until the very, very end.

[00:44:50] Stephen Fenech: Like it really— I don’t think it was meant to, it was meant to be this thing that people were a bit sus about. Remember he had it, remember? Remember? He had it and gave it to Rusty when he asked for it. Remember? He couldn’t find it.

[00:45:02] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:45:02] Stephen Fenech: So I reckon it might be that. It could be. Rusty tells Sandy about a bribery case and that here’s where it expands, that Raymond was actually involved.

[00:45:15] Movie Audio: Sandy, what would you say if I tell you that Raymond secretly assigned a bribery case to Carolyn? Who locked the poor son of a bitch up on a public indecency charge, paid off a P.A. to have his case dismissed. Turns out the guy’s probation officer is Carolyn, and the deputy assigned to the case is Tommy Muldoon. Day after I find this out, I’m charged with Carolyn’s murder.

[00:45:41] Movie Audio: Before we venture down the road into actual accusation, we must consider the matter very carefully.

[00:45:48] Movie Audio: —coincidence it plays out this way, Sandy. I mean, I mean, I’m innocent.

[00:45:56] Stephen Fenech: That’s the first time he said that in the whole movie, that he’s innocent. Yeah. Anyway, the trial is assigned. Remember, they have a little lottery to draw. I didn’t know they did that. They drew a little lottery to draw the judge, and it was Larrin Little, Paul— played by Paul Winfield, who, remember, he wanted the job, wanted the role, and he got it.

[00:46:13] Trevor Long: So —good.

[00:46:14] Stephen Fenech: Trial gets underway and a crucial piece of evidence, the bar glass with Rusty’s fingerprints, is missing.

[00:46:22] Movie Audio: Crazy. Your Honor, this witness will testify about a bar glass. They have no bar glass.

[00:46:27] Movie Audio: What about this, Mr. DellaGuardia?

[00:46:29] Movie Audio: Your Honor, I learned the first time last night from Tommy.

[00:46:31] Movie Audio: The bar glass—

[00:46:32] Movie Audio: Hold it right there. Inside, gentlemen. Your Honor, I request that Mr. Sybits join us in chambers. He is an integral part of the defense. All right.

[00:46:42] Movie Audio: Moto, where is the fucking glass?

[00:46:45] Movie Audio: The police evidence room was where it was supposed to be, but they haven’t been able to locate it.

[00:46:50] Movie Audio: Well, we’re not gonna be talking about evidence that nobody can find, not in my courtroom.

[00:46:57] Movie Audio: We have no objections to the photographs. Any testimony as to fingerprints, we will object to.

[00:47:02] Movie Audio: I will reserve decision, gentlemen.

[00:47:04] Stephen Fenech: So there’s that. Uh— Um, the betrayal on the stand is what happens now. Horgan takes the stand for the prosecution and he purges himself, claiming Rusty aggressively demanded the case only to slow walk the investigation.

[00:47:19] Movie Audio: Your Honor, the witness has testified on direct examination that Mr. Savage did not bring to his attention information that he regarded as pertinent. The defense is entitled to explore Mr. Horgan’s standard in this regard.

[00:47:32] Movie Audio: Well, subject to a later connection, I’ll allow it. Continue, counselor.

[00:47:38] Movie Audio: And you gave that, uh, B-file to Mr. Savage only after he informed you that it was missing from Miss Polemas’s office. Is that not true?

[00:47:46] Movie Audio: That’s true.

[00:47:47] Movie Audio: You’ve told us that you and Carolyn were lovers.

[00:47:51] Movie Audio: For a short time, yes.

[00:47:53] Movie Audio: B-file cases, uh, cases involving bribery and of official misconduct are normally assigned to the assistant deputy, at the time, Mr. Savage. Is that not true?

[00:48:04] Movie Audio: That was the usual practice, yes, sir.

[00:48:06] Movie Audio: You gave this highly sensitive matter in this B file to Carolyn Telemis while you were sleeping with her?

[00:48:12] Movie Audio: That appears to be the timeframe. The answer to the question is yes.

[00:48:17] Movie Audio: And were you not concerned, sir, in the midst of a nip and tuck election campaign about word leaking out that you had secretly given a file that was in Mr. Savage’s area of authority to an assistant with no experience in such matters with whom you were sleeping at the time?

[00:48:34] Movie Audio: May have crossed my mind. Who knows, Mr. Stern? It was not an ideal situation.

[00:48:40] Movie Audio: Far from it. And, sir, you come to this courtroom where the life of a man who served you faithfully for a dozen years now hangs in the balance, and you tell us that you withheld evidence from him that might have assisted in his investigation?

[00:48:58] Stephen Fenech: Absolutely shreds it up. Huge.

[00:49:00] Trevor Long: That’s great.

[00:49:00] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Lipbrandt takes the stand and explains that Rusty has forgotten, had forgotten to chase up fingerprint analysis. Looks bad.

[00:49:08] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Stephen Fenech: And explains that he was brought onto the case to replace another investigator. So the bottom line is they’re mates. He brought him on, they’re close.

[00:49:17] Movie Audio: Yep.

[00:49:18] Stephen Fenech: And they were trying to imply that, you know, he was getting him a saloon passage. The missing B-file is once again mentioned. Sandy tells Rusty that contrary to his original hopes, they’re gonna have to present a defense.

[00:49:31] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:49:32] Stephen Fenech: But Rusty though says he’s willing—

[00:49:34] Trevor Long: He wants to.

[00:49:35] Stephen Fenech: To testify if he has to.

[00:49:36] Trevor Long: As many defendants are.

[00:49:39] Movie Audio: Look, when I was a prosecutor, I always knew I had a winner. When the defendant refused to testify. All I want to do is tell the truth. The jury wants to hear me say I didn’t do it.

[00:49:52] Movie Audio: And that you will do very well. But with every word, you will confirm what the prosecution is saying, that you were overwhelmed with a sexual obsession that took a wrong turn into rage when she ended the affair. And you will have gone a long way to eliminating the jury’s reasonable doubt.

[00:50:13] Stephen Fenech: He sees it, talks sense, old Sandy. Yeah, that’s brilliant. Smart lawyer.

[00:50:18] Trevor Long: ‘Cause see, Rusty thinks he’s a genius ’cause he’s a prosecutor and he knows that he should be on the stand. But the defense, the defense attorney knows better. That’s why they don’t put him on the stand.

[00:50:28] Stephen Fenech: Now the bribery subplot bubbles to the surface again here. Yes. Lipranza has found the low-level criminal named Leon Wells who was named in the hidden file Carolyn had kept regarding the bribery case.

[00:50:44] Trevor Long: Yes, and so they go and confront him.

[00:50:45] Stephen Fenech: They find him and he reveals exactly what happened.

[00:50:49] Movie Audio: A Rusty Savage is getting on the phone and he is going to tell your present associates that 5 years ago you paid off a PA to get off a rapper molesting an officer, to wit, trying to get paid to suck his cock in a public place. Now Now, Leon, how about 5 minutes of your time?

[00:51:11] Movie Audio: Huh? This blonde bitch. My probation officer set it up. In the PA’s office? Man standing behind me. He telling me when I come in, just don’t turn around, just do what the man say. He said, uh, just leave the money in the top drawer. $1,500.

[00:51:55] Movie Audio: What, you never saw him?

[00:51:57] Movie Audio: But he knows who it was. Judge Motherfucker. That’s what we all called him.

[00:52:13] Movie Audio: Warren Little.

[00:52:16] Stephen Fenech: Boom. So that’s what— because you recall throughout the case, Sandy was mentioning this file knowing, kind of knowing full well that he was aware, he knew that he was involved and just sort of hung it out there.

[00:52:31] Trevor Long: He knew who was involved.

[00:52:33] Stephen Fenech: Sandy Stern knew that he was involved.

[00:52:35] Trevor Long: Sandy Stern knew who was involved?

[00:52:37] Stephen Fenech: That the judge was involved.

[00:52:38] Trevor Long: How did he know that? Until that moment?

[00:52:40] Stephen Fenech: Well, I reckon he, well, he was pursuing it longer than, well before this.

[00:52:46] Trevor Long: No, he just knew that it was hot to trot. So you’re saying that he had no idea it was the judge.

[00:52:52] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, okay. I thought he might’ve had a kind of an inkling No.

[00:52:56] Movie Audio: That he was involved.

[00:52:57] Trevor Long: That was huge news at that point for all of them.

[00:53:00] Stephen Fenech: Okay.

[00:53:00] Trevor Long: I’m convinced.

[00:53:01] Stephen Fenech: Now back in court, they can’t find the glass still, but are allowed to talk about it. And I think the judge says, look, they’re gonna talk about this, but if you, you can consider this reasonable doubt, the fact they can’t find it.

[00:53:12] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:53:12] Stephen Fenech: So do what you wanna do with that. Now the climax of the trial occurs during the cross-examination of the combative medical examiner, Dr. Kumagai.

[00:53:23] Movie Audio: How many autopsies do you perform in a week, Dr.

[00:53:26] Movie Audio: Kumagai? Oh, 1, 2, 10.

[00:53:31] Movie Audio: It all depends. Would it surprise you to know that you performed 18 autopsies in the 2 weeks surrounding Carolyn Polemas’ death?

[00:53:39] Movie Audio: Mm, no, sir. Sounds about, uh, sounds about right.

[00:53:44] Movie Audio: And given that number, isn’t it fair to say that the the specifics of any one examination may slip your mind?

[00:53:50] Movie Audio: I, uh, I take notes while I do the autopsies, so—

[00:53:55] Movie Audio: Notes, yes. Well, these notes led you to tell Detective Lipprenzer that the murderer was sterile. Looking back, you must have thought you were a fool to have escaped something so obvious as the use of a contraceptive spermicide.

[00:54:12] Movie Audio: Sperm were dead. I didn’t have the forensic chemist report about the spermicidal jelly. In absence of any other explanation, I thought the guy was sterile.

[00:54:26] Stephen Fenech: But it continues in the cross-examination.

[00:54:29] Trevor Long: This is where he brings out more documents.

[00:54:31] Stephen Fenech: Stern drops the bomb.

[00:54:35] Movie Audio: Would you explain in layman’s language what a tubal ligation is?

[00:54:41] Movie Audio: She, um, she had her tubes tied.

[00:54:53] Movie Audio: Is it possible for a woman with this procedure to conceive a child?

[00:54:58] Movie Audio: No way.

[00:55:00] Movie Audio: Can you think of any reason for a woman who had her were tubes tied to use as spermicide?

[00:55:10] Movie Audio: No reason, no medical reason. I, I think of nothing.

[00:55:16] Movie Audio: Does it not follow, given these facts, that the specimen you sent to the chemist was not taken from the body of Carolyn Polemis?

[00:55:25] Movie Audio: I can’t account for it.

[00:55:30] Movie Audio: Oh, so you don’t know what happened. Wherever you got that specimen from, Doctor, you sent it to the chemist while you were having secret communications with Mr. Malto behind Mr. Sabetz’s back. Am I right?

[00:55:45] Movie Audio: Do you accuse me, Mr. Stern?

[00:55:48] Movie Audio: Sit down, Doctor. Oh, I think we have had enough unsupported accusations.— for one case.

[00:55:58] Stephen Fenech: Boom! Now with the physical evidence completely compromised, the fingerprint glass missing, and the prosecution case in tatters, Sandy was about to make a notice for dismissal, but Judge Little tells him to sit down.

[00:56:15] Movie Audio: There is no proof of motive here. There’s no concrete evidence that there ever was an intimate relationship, there is no effective proof, so far as I am concerned, that would give a reasonable person grounds to believe that Mr. Savage had carnal relations with Miss Polemas on the night of her death. In point of fact, there’s not one shred of direct proof that Mr. Savage murdered Miss Polemas. So under these circumstances, I I cannot allow this trial to continue.

[00:56:49] Movie Audio: Oh!

[00:56:49] Movie Audio: Mr. Savage, you are discharged, sir. And I cannot begin to tell you how sorry I am that any of this has taken place. Not even the pleasure of seeing you free can make up for this— this disgrace to the cause of justice.

[00:57:15] Stephen Fenech: Godspeed. Case dismissed. Boom. Now, uh, following this acquittal, Stern confirms the ugly truth. Judge Little did take the bribe, and both he and Ray Horgan knew about it.

[00:57:35] Movie Audio: Sandy, how did you know it was behind Lauren’s fear of the B-file? Ah, you questioned the With just cause, wouldn’t you say? You knew that file didn’t have a damn thing to do with my case. And yet you let Larrin know you’d drag it in at any opportunity. That it would come out he was taking bribes. That Carolin was the courier. You blackmailed him, Sandy.

[00:58:00] Movie Audio: We speak now tonight. And these things are never spoken of again. Agreed? Larrin’s divorce left him in a state of disorder. He was drinking much too heavily, and he fell into a relationship with a beautiful but, uh, self-serving woman.

[00:58:20] Movie Audio: Hmm.

[00:58:20] Stephen Fenech: Ha ha ha! Carol it again!

[00:58:22] Movie Audio: The fact is, Larrin himself grew suicidally depressed. He wanted to resign from the bench. Raymond Horgan talked him out Of of it. it.

[00:58:31] Movie Audio: Raymond knew he was taking bribes?

[00:58:33] Movie Audio: Larrin told him. Raymond cleaned up the north side, as you recall, and he also rescued a distinguished mind and a career that does honor to the bench. I believe Larrin today did what he thought was just. You tell me, Rusty. Was justice done?

[00:58:58] Stephen Fenech: So he did know. He did know. Stern knew, mate. He knew.

[00:59:02] Trevor Long: Stern knew, but Stern also didn’t know that Rusty and his detective were still looking into the B-file.

[00:59:10] Stephen Fenech: That’s right, yeah. Happy coincidence. Meanwhile, Lip Brancer meets Rusty and casually hands him the missing beer glass.

[00:59:20] Movie Audio: Knew it. You’re hanging your ass out a good long way on this one, Lip.

[00:59:24] Movie Audio: It was them that fucked up. Remember they came around, they grabbed all the evidence? The glass wasn’t there. I took it down to Dickerman. The very next day, I get a call from the lab. The test is done. I can come pick up my glass. But when I went down there, Molto had signed a receipt, “Return to evidence.” You know, I guess the idea was that I’ll put it back in. I got no way to put it anywhere since it ain’t my goddamn case anymore. So I tossed the thing in my drawer. I figured sooner or later somebody’s gotta ask me.

[01:00:02] Trevor Long: They never did.

[01:00:04] Movie Audio: Nobody did?

[01:00:04] Stephen Fenech: So good.

[01:00:06] Movie Audio: You think I killed her?

[01:00:09] Movie Audio: The lady was bad news.

[01:00:16] Movie Audio: So that makes it okay I killed her?

[01:00:18] Movie Audio: Did you?

[01:00:19] Movie Audio: No, pal.

[01:00:23] Stephen Fenech: Did he say no pal there? No pal? No, he sort of denied it. Yeah, yeah. Interesting turn of events there. Then they throw the glass in the river.

[01:00:34] Trevor Long: Throws it. Rusty throws it, which is the right thing to do in that circumstance, for sure. Having burnt the note earlier, he may as well do this as well.

[01:00:41] Stephen Fenech: Might as well. Well, now back at his house, he’s, you know, on, I think he’s been on a bit of gardening leave at the moment.

[01:00:47] Trevor Long: Oh yeah, he’s off his weekend job.

[01:00:48] Stephen Fenech: He’s going to the tool shed to repair a fence.

[01:00:52] Trevor Long: So he’s just outside having a lovely day. He told his, ’cause he took his wife to work.

[01:00:56] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, she’s gone for some maths, some big interview, professor interview. He pulls out a small hatchet and sees it’s coated in dried blood and strands of hair. It’s the murder weapon.

[01:01:11] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:01:12] Stephen Fenech: And what does Rusty do? Washes it.

[01:01:15] Trevor Long: Well, he freaks out and then he goes inside and washes it.

[01:01:17] Movie Audio: Freaks out and then he goes and watches it.

[01:01:18] Stephen Fenech: Then he walks in the room and Barbara’s there completely detached and calm and confesses.

[01:01:30] Movie Audio: It must be a crime that her husband can declare unsolved be believed by all the world. She must make it look like a rape. But she must leave her husband clues. Once he discovers who it was, he’ll put the case into the file of unsolved murders. Another break-in by some sex-crazed man. But all his lies— [SPEAKING GERMAN] He’ll know that it was her. She remembers a set of glasses she bought for the woman some time before, housewarming gift from her husband and his office. She buys another set. Her husband has a beer one night. Doesn’t even comment on the glass. Now she has his fingerprints. And then on a few mornings, she saves the fluid that comes out when she removes her diaphragm. Puts it in a plastic bag. Puts the bag in the basement freezer and waits.

[01:02:50] Stephen Fenech: It’s pretty meticulous. Yeah. That, did you sense that how she explained that, right? See if you agree with this. She wanted him to realize it was her.

[01:03:04] Trevor Long: Yes.

[01:03:04] Stephen Fenech: Right, so ’cause remember she said, “Oh, I got the glass.” She doesn’t know.

[01:03:07] Trevor Long: She doesn’t know the glass is gonna go missing.

[01:03:10] Stephen Fenech: Yeah.

[01:03:10] Trevor Long: She doesn’t know about the B file.

[01:03:12] Stephen Fenech: Yep.

[01:03:12] Trevor Long: Like she’s not across any of this stuff, right? Yeah, that’s right. So she just assumes that he’s gonna get the case and he is gonna make sure it disappears as just irrelevant because he, for example, he’s gonna see the glass and go, Wait a minute, we’ve got those same, that could be our one.

[01:03:26] Stephen Fenech: That’s right. But here’s, she explains further.

[01:03:30] Movie Audio: She calls the woman and asks to see her. Stops first at the U and logs into the computer. Now she has her alibi. She goes to the woman. The woman lets her in. When her head is turned, she removes the instrument from her bag and strikes. The destroyer is destroyed. She takes a cord out that she brought along and ties her body in ways her husband described the perverts do. She feels power.

[01:04:12] Movie Audio: Control.

[01:04:15] Movie Audio: A sense that she’s guided by a force beyond herself. She takes a syringe and injects the contents of the Ziploc bag, leaves the glass on the bar, unlocks the door and windows, and goes home. And life begins again.

[01:04:45] Movie Audio: Again.

[01:04:47] Movie Audio: Until a trial, when she sees her husband suffer a way she never intended. She was prepared to tell the truth right up to the very end. When magically the charges were dismissed, suffering was over.

[01:05:21] Trevor Long: Wow.

[01:05:21] Stephen Fenech: Now, all this time, Rusty’s looking at her like tears in his eyes, and I think at the end there he says, “And we were saved.” And he goes, “Saved? What do you mean?” Like, so— Now tell me how surprised/shocked, not surprised.

[01:05:37] Trevor Long: Crazy.

[01:05:37] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:05:37] Stephen Fenech: No one suspected.

[01:05:39] Trevor Long: No one saw that coming.

[01:05:40] Stephen Fenech: That was a great twist, eh?

[01:05:41] Trevor Long: ‘Cause the actual, the crazy part that you didn’t play was when she first walks into the room, she goes, “I fooled them all.” And you’re like, “What’s just happened?” And she accounts for that as being the interview. “I did the interview well.” And then she notices that he’s scrubbing the hatchet. So she realizes he knows. Yeah. And that makes you, your head goes wild. Boom. Yeah. Very well done.

[01:06:02] Stephen Fenech: But then when you look back watching it, you watch it again.

[01:06:05] Trevor Long: Exactly.

[01:06:06] Stephen Fenech: You watch it different.

[01:06:06] Trevor Long: Yeah. Yeah. The one thing that—

[01:06:08] Stephen Fenech: It’s like the Sixth Sense. It’s amazing.

[01:06:09] Trevor Long: The one thing that flashed back to me was that when she said they’re not looking for the murder weapon in the search warrant.

[01:06:14] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Well, she asked, are you looking for the murder weapon? And I don’t think they answered.

[01:06:18] Trevor Long: Okay. But then let me understand this. Don’t you think she—

[01:06:23] Stephen Fenech: Well, she, why would she leave it there?

[01:06:24] Trevor Long: She wanted him to be found. She wanted to be caught.

[01:06:26] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:06:26] Stephen Fenech: She wanted him to be caught. Exactly right. She was framing her husband. Yes.

[01:06:29] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:06:31] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:06:31] Stephen Fenech: Anyway, the film ends, sort of bookends the front, you know how there was the mystery box and the— The voiceover. Now, so this is the ending with the Simba, the somber voiceover from Rusty.

[01:06:42] Movie Audio: The murder of Carolyn Polhemus remains unsolved. It is a practical impossibility to try two people for the same crime. Even if it wasn’t, I couldn’t take his mother from my son. I am a prosecutor. I have spent my life in the assignment of blame. With all deliberation and intent, I reached for Carolyn. I cannot pretend it was an accident. I reached for Carolyn and set off that insane mix of rage and lunacy— That led to the murder. I led one human being to kill another. There was a crime. There was a victim. And there is punishment.

[01:07:32] Trevor Long: There you have it. He finds himself guilty.

[01:07:34] Stephen Fenech: Let’s get through some lines here. This is, remember, he comes home and finds his wife all sweaty.

[01:07:39] Trevor Long: Sitting on the bed sweating.

[01:07:41] Movie Audio: Exercise?

[01:07:43] Movie Audio: Masturbation. Refuge of the lonely housewife. Wow.

[01:07:49] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Now this is a really tense exchange. I couldn’t fit in the run-through. I wanted it to be played here. The tense exchange between, um, Carolyn and Rusty.

[01:08:00] Movie Audio: You communicate through memos, you skip meetings I’m supposed to go to. It’s affecting the work.

[01:08:05] Movie Audio: My work? My work. I tried to make it easier for you. You make me feel uncomfortable.

[01:08:17] Movie Audio: I just want to be with you. Can’t we just talk about it?

[01:08:22] Movie Audio: I’m involved. Someone else.

[01:08:25] Trevor Long: Since when?

[01:08:26] Movie Audio: What is it you want from me?

[01:08:30] Movie Audio: What do I have to do?

[01:08:34] Stephen Fenech: Grow up. Grow up. Grow up. Here’s a nice little one too. Remember when they’re preparing for the trial? Oh, and someone says this.

[01:08:43] Movie Audio: I can’t believe there could be any more surprises.

[01:08:46] Movie Audio: That’s when they come. That’s why they’re called surprises.

[01:08:50] Stephen Fenech: Hello. And this is a really cool one. Remember when they’re objecting? Remember when they wanted, Malto wanted to testify that he said he did it? Yes. And this is the judge’s response.

[01:09:01] Movie Audio: You tell a man he’s engaged in wrongdoing and he says, yeah, you’re right. Now everybody knows that. That’s facetious. I’m all familiar with that. Shoot, in my neighborhood, had Mr. Savage come from those parts, he would have said, “Yo mama.” All right, how did that happen?

[01:09:17] Stephen Fenech: A plot hole, I think. They executed the search warrant and failed to find the murder weapon.

[01:09:23] Trevor Long: Yeah, but they weren’t looking for it. They weren’t allowed to look for it.

[01:09:26] Stephen Fenech: The warrant didn’t have that.

[01:09:28] Trevor Long: The warrant— what he said was, she said, “Are they looking for the—” He said, “It’s He has an answer for that. They’re not allowed to look for the thing there. Yeah, there was an answer to that.

[01:09:37] Stephen Fenech: There was a limited time.

[01:09:38] Trevor Long: There was an answer that he gave to his wife about why they’re not looking for the murder weapon.

[01:09:43] Stephen Fenech: I thought I’d use this section to quickly go book v film. They’re very similar, but the film has a different kind of viewpoint. Barbara Sabich never confesses about the murder in the book.

[01:09:56] Movie Audio: In the book, ah, okay.

[01:09:57] Stephen Fenech: Rusty eventually discovers the truth.

[01:09:59] Trevor Long: Ah, right.

[01:10:00] Stephen Fenech: And the movie’s ending narration where Barbara recounts the murder is almost verbatim what Rusty says in the book and how he pieced it together.

[01:10:09] Trevor Long: Okay.

[01:10:09] Stephen Fenech: He employs the third person narrative and mirrors Barbara’s approach in the movie.

[01:10:15] Trevor Long: Gotcha.

[01:10:15] Stephen Fenech: So the novel’s conclusion, Barbara informs Rusty she’s relocating to Detroit to teach at a university and doesn’t anticipate him joining her.

[01:10:25] Trevor Long: Thank you very much for coming.

[01:10:27] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. But in both versions, the crime goes unpunished. Finished. Yeah, and he knows his wife’s guilt. Yeah, yeah. Speaker workout, the piano speaker, the soundtrack was really nice, very nice. Uh, thank God I got a big screen. Did nice shots of Michigan and nice suburban shots.

[01:10:46] Trevor Long: Also, can I just give you a movie knowledge flashback here, although I don’t remember which one? It’s a Michael Douglas movie where he catches the ferry every morning.

[01:10:54] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, that was Disclosure. I’m like, what is happening here? Yeah.

[01:10:57] Trevor Long: He’s being dropped off at the ferry.

[01:10:59] Movie Audio: The ferry, yeah.

[01:10:59] Trevor Long: He’s like, what is happening here?

[01:11:00] Stephen Fenech: Disclosure, good memory. Well, you didn’t know the name of the movie, but anyway. The business now, you know what? I’m gonna use this bit as a bit of a fact check. Fact check here. I remember pivotal moment in the trial is that Rusty, they discover that she had her tubes tied.

[01:11:15] Trevor Long: Yes.

[01:11:15] Stephen Fenech: But so why use Naloxone 9?

[01:11:17] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[01:11:18] Stephen Fenech: Now remember, this was filmed late ’80s, early ’90s. And at the time the consensus was Naloxone 9 not only is a spermicide, but also protection against HIV. IV. So she could have potentially, that could have been the motive.

[01:11:33] Trevor Long: Used it for that reason.

[01:11:34] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, to further her, not only her contraception, but protection from AIDS.

[01:11:40] Trevor Long: Okay.

[01:11:40] Stephen Fenech: In fact, like the, one of the critics criticized it as a plot point, a plot flaw in his review.

[01:11:49] Trevor Long: That’s a bit much.

[01:11:49] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, it’s one of them, I think Joel Insinger.

[01:11:52] Trevor Long: Calm down, brother.

[01:11:52] Stephen Fenech: In his review for the Chicago Reader said That’s a contradiction is never addressed in the film. Yeah.

[01:11:58] Trevor Long: Okay, mate, get over yourself.

[01:12:00] Stephen Fenech: If this movie was made today, well, it was made today, is an Apple TV series. Have you seen that? Jake Gyllenhaal, watch it now.

[01:12:08] Trevor Long: No, I feel like—

[01:12:09] Stephen Fenech: Have you seen that one? Jake Gyllenhaal, it’s this book adapted into an 8-part series.

[01:12:15] Movie Audio: All right.

[01:12:15] Stephen Fenech: So it’s a modern take and I want, if you haven’t seen it, watch it. Now that you’ve seen the film, I reckon you’ll enjoy that more.

[01:12:24] Trevor Long: I feel like I have seen it anyway.

[01:12:27] Stephen Fenech: All right, every day is a school day. What’s the theme or lesson here? My number one, I think, keep your dick in your pants.

[01:12:34] Trevor Long: It’s not rocket science, brother.

[01:12:36] Stephen Fenech: That’s it. I reckon there’s a bit of office politics too, the whole sort of the—

[01:12:39] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[01:12:40] Stephen Fenech: And she’s, don’t forget, she’s the only woman in a man’s world, it appears. So she’s sort of trying to find—

[01:12:46] Trevor Long: Don’t trust a woman with ambition.

[01:12:47] Stephen Fenech: Using her wiles, you know, to get ahead. She was sleeping her way to the top, wasn’t she? So I think the office politics, obviously trust, who do you trust?

[01:13:00] Trevor Long: Yep, definitely.

[01:13:01] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Best use of the pause button. This is a cracker.

[01:13:04] Trevor Long: Well, there’s a couple, but anyway, go on.

[01:13:05] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, no, not those ones. Okay, yep. When Rusty’s found not guilty and out the front is surrounded by reporters, one of the reporters holds up a tape recorder recorder, did you notice something? No tape in it.

[01:13:20] Trevor Long: Oh wow.

[01:13:20] Stephen Fenech: It was an empty tape recorder.

[01:13:22] Trevor Long: Brother.

[01:13:23] Stephen Fenech: Things you might not know, Harrison Ford’s hair was cut.

[01:13:28] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[01:13:29] Stephen Fenech: Pretty savagely cut.

[01:13:30] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[01:13:30] Stephen Fenech: But in a way to make him look more unlikable.

[01:13:33] Trevor Long: Really?

[01:13:34] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, so he could sort of—

[01:13:35] Trevor Long: Yeah, ’cause it was a little bit more jailhouse style than business style, wasn’t it?

[01:13:39] Stephen Fenech: It meant to be having a really nice day.

[01:13:40] Trevor Long: You could believe that he did it.

[01:13:41] Stephen Fenech: Yeah.

[01:13:42] Trevor Long: Well, he also had the note and the burn, which is irrelevant broadly. Yeah, because what does the note mean? But the fact that he did it makes you think he’s guilty.

[01:13:50] Stephen Fenech: Absolutely. There’s a little, little, little things like that. Oh, little breadcrumbs. Yeah, for sure. John Spencer said, and now in The West Wing he plays an ex-alcoholic, which he actually was in real life. He was a recovering alcoholic.

[01:14:01] Trevor Long: That’s right.

[01:14:01] Stephen Fenech: He said this was his first ever on-screen work totally sober.

[01:14:05] Trevor Long: Wow.

[01:14:06] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, so that was pretty big for him. Did you notice near the beginning of the movie Harrison Ford sits down at the computer? This could also be a pause button. Pause button one. When he reviews the case files, most of the defendants’ names, uh, that are listed for various sex-related crimes are the surnames of the film crew members.

[01:14:26] Movie Audio: Oh really?

[01:14:26] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Did you also notice young Joe Mazzello? Remember the young kid who testified to child abuse? Remember that case together? That dude was the kid from Jurassic Park.

[01:14:38] Trevor Long: Oh no.

[01:14:39] Stephen Fenech: And he would go— he would grow up to be one of the members of Queen in Bohemian Rhapsody.

[01:14:43] Trevor Long: Oh my God.

[01:14:44] Stephen Fenech: He was one of those guys. He was Okay, what’s the thing? What’s the meme? I like Malto, you killed her. Yeah, that’s right. You, you’re— that one. I like the judge is your mama. Oh, that’d be a good one too.

[01:14:56] Trevor Long: I feel like there’s something with a hammer, with the hatchet at the end there.

[01:14:59] Stephen Fenech: I reckon her line, the destroyer will be destroyed. That was her line about it. Yeah, uh, and I reckon you have a lot of fun with Rusty’s haircut. The haircut, maybe. Yeah, uh, by any other name In fact, while you’re thinking, in Brazil the film was called Above Suspicion. I mean, you could call this anything like Plot Twist or Criminal Court, Assigning Guilt. Yeah, Earning Innocence is another one. They’re the ones I just came up with off the top of my head.

[01:15:29] Trevor Long: Nice. Yeah.

[01:15:31] Stephen Fenech: Uh, what’s the one thing you want?

[01:15:32] Trevor Long: Um, I mean, they burnt the note, but that would have been a cool like—

[01:15:36] Stephen Fenech: I’ll take the murder weapon.

[01:15:37] Trevor Long: That’s a bit weird.

[01:15:38] Stephen Fenech: I’ll take that.

[01:15:39] Trevor Long: It’s a bit weird.

[01:15:40] Stephen Fenech: Or the bar glass.

[01:15:41] Trevor Long: The glass would be interesting. Glass in question with his prints still on.

[01:15:44] Movie Audio: Imagine having—

[01:15:44] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, I’d say I’ll buy it as long as Harrison Ford puts his prints on it again.

[01:15:48] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[01:15:49] Stephen Fenech: All right, 3 questions for Trev.

[01:15:51] Trevor Long: Hit me.

[01:15:52] Stephen Fenech: What happens to Rusty and Barbara now? Are they together?

[01:15:55] Trevor Long: They’re no longer together.

[01:15:56] Stephen Fenech: Donskey? No, she’s—

[01:15:57] Trevor Long: He leaves her.

[01:15:59] Stephen Fenech: You think so? Yeah, she does this. ‘Cause in the book, he, she goes.

[01:16:02] Trevor Long: Yeah, see. In the movie, I think it’s portrayed as if she’s doing this to save everything.

[01:16:08] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, well, ’cause you can remember during the movie, it reminds me actually, remember she sort of came out with the sexy lingerie and she was trying to spice it up and he was no interest at all? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so.

[01:16:17] Trevor Long: She’s trying to save it. She was still wounded, mate. He will never get over her being a murderer.

[01:16:21] Stephen Fenech: There you go, yeah.

[01:16:22] Trevor Long: In fact, there’s a chance he dubs her in.

[01:16:25] Stephen Fenech: You think so?

[01:16:26] Trevor Long: But he’s just washed the murder weapon, so pretty hard.

[01:16:28] Stephen Fenech: Yeah, but he betrayed her. I understand that. He betrayed her, but he killed someone. No, he did kill her. Sorry. He didn’t kill anyone.

[01:16:33] Trevor Long: It’s a bigger deal.

[01:16:34] Stephen Fenech: Oh, okay. So not justified, is it?

[01:16:36] Movie Audio: No.

[01:16:36] Trevor Long: Justifiable homicide? No.

[01:16:38] Stephen Fenech: Fair enough. Right, question 2. Has this inspired you to watch other courtroom dramas?

[01:16:41] Trevor Long: I didn’t know what it was going to inspire me to do. No, yes, absolutely.

[01:16:44] Stephen Fenech: You’re a fan, eh?

[01:16:45] Trevor Long: I get right into this.

[01:16:46] Stephen Fenech: The only other courtroom drama that I can think of off the top of my head is Witness for the Prosecution. Remember the black and white movie? Remember the old one? That was— Oh yes.

[01:16:54] Trevor Long: That was about this courtroom.

[01:16:54] Stephen Fenech: Oh yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Remember the woman pretended to be someone Yeah.

[01:16:58] Trevor Long: Yeah.

[01:16:59] Stephen Fenech: Question 3, too long, too short, or just right?

[01:17:01] Trevor Long: I think it could be slightly shorter, but it’s not much. There’s just little bits.

[01:17:05] Stephen Fenech: I reckon it was on the reflectors.

[01:17:07] Trevor Long: All the little bits you trim are just those little nuggets that are made to subvert your eye and make you think other things.

[01:17:14] Stephen Fenech: Fair enough.

[01:17:15] Trevor Long: So keep it as it is.

[01:17:17] Stephen Fenech: Righto, that is Presumed Innocent. Give us your wrap-up and rating.

[01:17:22] Trevor Long: Look, it’s a great movie. It was a good movie. I really enjoyed it. You know, the fact that you can do a movie like this and get all the way to the end and still have another twist from all of that. The fact that the judge himself was involved, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[01:17:33] Stephen Fenech: A lot of coincidence going on there. A lot of things had to align. A lot. Like, you know, his name was drawn out of a lottery for God’s sake. So what are the odds of that?

[01:17:41] Trevor Long: Exactly. And the relevance of that to the case is zero, but it allows them to, you know—

[01:17:46] Stephen Fenech: Hang it over his head.

[01:17:46] Trevor Long: Play him a bit that way. Like, I really enjoyed the movie. Don’t get me wrong, loved it. But you know, I’ve got to be careful not to go, it’s an outstanding movie in that sense. I think this is an 8.5 for me.

[01:17:58] Stephen Fenech: I’m a 9.

[01:18:00] Movie Audio: Okay.

[01:18:00] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. I really like this movie. And actually I like it better. I like it because I’ve read the book. So how I pictured it in my mind when I read it, they did a really good job to represent that.

[01:18:12] Trevor Long: You know, I’m adjusting my score. I’ve just looked back at some, I’m going 9. 9 because I’ve looked at like American President, 9.5. Wayne’s World, 8.5. This is better than Wayne’s World. So yeah, it’s a challenge.

[01:18:23] Stephen Fenech: Each to their own. All right, so you’re a 9.

[01:18:25] Trevor Long: We’re double 9s. We’re in agreement. We’re double 9s.

[01:18:28] Stephen Fenech: Do you want to talk about next week?

[01:18:29] Trevor Long: Yep.

[01:18:29] Stephen Fenech: Next week we’re watching Trading Places, released in 1983. Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy, Dan Aykroyd, Jamie Lee Curtis. Okay, directed by John Landis. Now my question you.

[01:18:41] Trevor Long: Right.

[01:18:42] Stephen Fenech: John Landis would direct Eddie Murphy again in another movie. Was it A, Beverly Hills Cop, B, The Nutty Professor, C, Harlem Nights, or D, Coming to America?

[01:18:55] Trevor Long: No idea. Coming to America. Correct.

[01:18:57] Movie Audio: Ah, yes.

[01:18:58] Stephen Fenech: Well, I would like to think that you remembered from the movie.

[01:19:00] Trevor Long: Well, the name rang a bell. The name rang a bell for sure.

[01:19:04] Stephen Fenech: Yeah. Okay. Well, that was presumed Innocent.

[01:19:08] Trevor Long: That’s good.

[01:19:08] Stephen Fenech: We hope you join us next week for our next film, Trading Places. Trev, I’ll see you then.

[01:19:13] Trevor Long: Bring it on.