The Best Movies You’ve Never Seen podcast – The Insider

Episode: The Insider

Podcast: Best Movies You’ve Never Seen

Date: 29 May 2026

Hosts: Stephen Fenech & Trevor Long

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[00:01:43] Stephen: Hello and welcome to The Best Movies You’ve Never Seen podcast, proudly supported by Fetch TV and Hisense. We’ll talk more about them later, but this is a podcast about movies that maybe you might not have seen. I’ve seen them. I’m the movie head. My name is Stephen Fenech, and I present a new movie each and every week to my co-host Trevor Long, who is experiencing them maybe just like you, for watching them for the very first time and then enjoying our commentary on the show.

[00:02:11] Trevor: That’s what I do.

[00:02:12] Stephen: Is that about wrap it up?

[00:02:13] Trevor: I put up with what he sends me.

[00:02:15] Stephen: Yeah, Trevor, by the way, has no choice in what we watch.

[00:02:18] Trevor: No, a couple of times I’ve had some choice.

[00:02:19] Stephen: Completely up to me. There have been some suggestions, but, uh, and mainly suggestions from our listeners too. Like, yes, happy to hear, by the way, if you have a— if we haven’t covered a movie that you love, uh, send us the suggestion because I absolutely will consider it if it isn’t already on my list. I will absolutely think, think about it.

[00:02:36] Trevor: And you’ve got that list from what Chad from our—

[00:02:39] Stephen: Yes, I have.

[00:02:40] Trevor: Yeah, very noble. He’s helped you with that.

[00:02:41] Stephen: I might have to get you to send me—

[00:02:42] Trevor: He’s made more promises than he can keep.

[00:02:44] Stephen: Oh yeah, now we’ll get, we’ll get there. There’s a lot of movies to cover this week. Uh, we’re on it, we’re on a cracker here. This is The Insider, uh, and a warning, there is some explicit language in our, in our audio that we’re going to play, so if the kiddies are in the car, just cover their ears. Uh, this was released in 1999 and starring our very own Russell Crowe, Rusty, uh, Al Pacino, So pretty solid. Uh, the, the fact— I remember when, when he was first cast in this movie, I’m thinking, wow, that’s Russell Crowe’s acting opposite Al Pacino and going matching him blow for blow, like in the great performance.

[00:03:19] Trevor: Oh yeah.

[00:03:20] Stephen: Uh, this was also directed by Michael Mann, and the big movie he did just before this was Heat, which starred Al Pacino as well. Now I consider this movie a hidden gem of sorts.

[00:03:34] Stephen: I think it’s, look, this is a favorite movie of mine.

[00:03:34] Movie Audio: Right.

[00:03:38] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:03:39] Stephen: But I think when, if you were to, if they were to give you the top 3 or 4 movies that Russell Crowe has starred in and Al Pacino has starred in, I don’t think, I don’t think this makes their top 5.

[00:03:51] Trevor: No.

[00:03:52] Stephen: But it is still a compelling film.

[00:03:55] Trevor: Oh, 100%.

[00:03:55] Stephen: Yeah. It is actually based on the true story of tobacco whistleblower, Dr. Jeffrey Wigand. Now, how did the movie adaptation come to mind?

[00:04:07] Trevor: I’ll tell you, it was from a Vanity Fair article which was mentioned in the opening credits, wasn’t it?

[00:04:14] Stephen: A 1996—

[00:04:15] Trevor: The Man Who Knew Too Much?

[00:04:16] Stephen: Correct. Yeah, 1996 article.

[00:04:18] Trevor: I read it, I watched it.

[00:04:19] Stephen: Yeah, you paused that one. So yeah, that was an article written by Marie Brenner in ’96, The Man Who Knew Too Much, which was all about Jeffrey Wigand. Now, the real Jeffrey Wigand asked for two concessions from the filmmaker. They said, he said, change the names of my daughters.

[00:04:39] Stephen: And I don’t want to see any smoking in the movie.

[00:04:39] Trevor: Okay.

[00:04:43] Trevor: Oh wow.

[00:04:43] Stephen: And there is only one little part, I think, uh, maybe another. Remember at the start, the one of the blokes in the Middle East, remember he’s having a smoke in the background?

[00:04:53] Trevor: But apart from that, it’s essentially not normalized in it.

[00:04:56] Stephen: No, no one is a smoker in this movie. Okay, right. So had you heard of this, known about this?

[00:05:02] Trevor: No, no, nothing. When, when I, when I watched it, I, the, this version of of Russell Crowe because he’s one of the most adaptable faces. Like, he’s got a lot of faces.

[00:05:12] Stephen: Well, the word you’re looking for is a chameleon. He can really inhabit a role.

[00:05:16] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:05:16] Stephen: And this he does.

[00:05:17] Trevor: And it’s funny because I follow him now on TikTok and I watch him. He hides his face when he’s doing a movie so you can’t see what his character is going to be.

[00:05:26] Trevor: And, and it’s fascinating because he does look so different in this, you know, the gray hair, the little bits of makeup and things. And so I feel like I’d seen that Russell Crowe somewhere in clips, but I had no idea this movie existed.

[00:05:36] Stephen: Okay, well, this— it was nominated for 7 Oscars, and as you— as I think you guessed right in, in last week’s millionaire question, it didn’t win any Oscars. It was nominated for Best Picture, lost to American Beauty. Best Actor, Russell Crowe lost to Kevin Spacey for American Beauty.

[00:05:52] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:05:53] Stephen: Best Director, Michael Mann lost to Sam Mendes, American Beauty. So were they having a run that night? Best Adapted Screenplay, lost to The Cider House Rules. Best Film Editing, lost to The Matrix. Best Sound, lost to The Matrix. Best Cinematography, lost to American Beauty. So 7— oh, for 7, uh, but, uh, and this was also Michael Mann’s only film that he made that was nominated for the Best Picture Academy Award. Heat wasn’t nominated for Best Picture.

[00:06:23] Movie Audio: Wow. Yeah.

[00:06:25] Stephen: Anyway, this is your last exit before the freeway. We’re going to take a deep draw in this one for The Insider. Well, that’s— isn’t that what you do when you smoke a cigarette?

[00:06:35] Trevor: I’ve never done it, so— but yes, that is correct.

[00:06:37] Stephen: I tried to be clever. This is the last exit before the freeway. If you haven’t seen The Insider, you can catch it on Fetch.

[00:06:44] Trevor: And Fetch is out there to make TV easier and more affordable. It’s simply the question of why. Well, it makes it easier. Tech that makes TV easier. Because free-to-air TV over the internet, you’ve got 48-hour reverse TV guide. You don’t have to jump in and out of the, the apps for each of the providers. The, the, uh, the free-to-air TV channels just there for you over the internet. Simple start-over, forward, reverse functions on any premium TV content. And you can jump forward up to 2 weeks for premium virtual TV channels in the episode— in the EPG, the electronic program guide. Amazing value proposition that makes home entertainment far more affordable because the entry tier is just $3.99 a month and gets you 25 included TV channels. And that’s growing 30 on-demand movies with no ads included, 30 family games, plus we now— they’re now giving customers one free Fetch Movie Store credit every month. So just by paying $3.99 a month, you get all those things and you get your pick of the movies from the Fetch Movie Store. Lots of great things to see and watch and enjoy on Fetch. So you can check it out now. Major retailers will sell it to you, and you can buy one and find out more information at fetchtv.com.au.

[00:07:56] Stephen: So you’ve now watched The Insider. It was a bit long, sorry mate, it’s a long movie. But you know what, I’m hoping that you didn’t notice that. Just give us your first impressions.

[00:08:04] Trevor: First impressions are, well, I mean, it’s a— I can see why it’s a hidden gem because it’s beautifully shot. Yeah, like this is not—

[00:08:10] Stephen: Magnificent.

[00:08:11] Trevor: Michael Mann. You’ll tell me later, but I’m assuming this wasn’t shot in 20 days, you know what I mean? This was—

[00:08:15] Stephen: Definitely not, no.

[00:08:16] Trevor: They didn’t hold back on the budget for everything, you know, every scene was meticulously planned and you can see that. So I got that vibe from it. It’s two great performances by Pacino and Crowe.

[00:08:30] Stephen: Russell Crowe, amazing.

[00:08:31] Trevor: And it’s a story, I think, I feel like I knew the story. I think we all know the story of Big Tobacco, but I didn’t know this story, you know, this 60 Minutes investigation. But I’ll save for the end my, I want you to bring up and remind me at the end the title of that Vanity Fair article.

[00:08:48] Trevor: ‘Cause I think it’s a fascinating one. To ask yourself how that applies to this. Yeah, I’ve got a really interesting—

[00:08:55] Trevor: Yeah, I’ve got an interesting insight on why I think this movie is multi-layered.

[00:09:01] Stephen: Of course, in that sense, so many layers. And so what’s your social media post here on this one?

[00:09:06] Trevor: I’m saying The Insider is a fascinating look behind the scenes of some of the best investigative journalism as well as a changing face of media. But the real story is the case against Big Tobacco. Crowe and Pacino — what a duo. Powerhouse. Because, you know, I’m a media guy. And so, yeah, you know, my message on this and social media is actually this is as much a media story, which is what I’m getting at about the multilayer to this as it is about Big Tobacco.

[00:09:29] Stephen: Absolutely right. I saw this at the movies.

[00:09:32] Trevor: This would have been beautiful on a big screen.

[00:09:34] Stephen: Day one, I think I was there on the day it opened on my own. Been a favorite ever since. Wasn’t really Joe’s cup of tea.

[00:09:41] Trevor: Right.

[00:09:42] Stephen: But I think that anyone who sits down to watch this, it just draws them in. It’s a really great story, well performed, well shot. Like Michael Mann, really, you can really see his hands all over this.

[00:09:56] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:09:57] Stephen: So yeah, absolute favorite of mine. Waiting for it to come out on 4K. It’s not on 4K, would you believe.

[00:10:02] Trevor: What year are we talking?

[00:10:05] Stephen: Uh, ’99.

[00:10:06] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:10:06] Stephen: It’s released in 1999.

[00:10:08] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:10:09] Stephen: Anyway, but you know, I’ve got The Wizard of Oz on 4K, mate, and that was made— that was made a lot earlier than this.

[00:10:15] Trevor: Yeah, right.

[00:10:16] Stephen: Uh, let’s talk about the cast, and of course Russell Crowe, uh, is the star of the show, or co-star of the show. Dr. Jeffrey Wigand he plays, uh, who is a real person, and we’ll talk more about him later. Uh, he was of course, uh, in Gladiator. He won the Best Actor Oscar for Gladiator.

[00:10:34] Trevor: Yep.

[00:10:35] Stephen: But he was in A Beautiful Mind, also nominated for Best Actor for that film. And more recently he was in Nuremberg.

[00:10:40] Stephen: I have watched that now. Yeah, that That’s good. And he was also in Chameleon or Watch. Absolutely. And then he was also in L.A. Confidential, which is one of his early Hollywood movies. Now, him and Guy Pearce together opposite Kevin Spacey. Al Pacino plays Lowell Bergman, and he was of course in— and we’ve done all of these movies— The Godfather, Scent of a Woman, Heat, Any Given Sunday. What about his list of films?

[00:10:40] Trevor: Did you watch that?

[00:11:10] Trevor: Crazy. Didn’t we find out last week that he’s one of our most—

[00:11:12] Stephen: Yes, I think— was it Tom Cruise the most popular because we did The Firm a few weeks ago.

[00:11:17] Trevor: Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:19] Stephen: I don’t have the list in front of me, but Christopher Plummer plays Mike Wallace. He was in The Sound of Music. I was going to say, yeah.

[00:11:26] Trevor: So the funny thing about him is, yeah, all I could see was Mike Wallace. All I could see was, yeah, a gent, like an old genuine respected journalist. He didn’t strike me as an actor, but I’m going, this guy, I’ve seen him before, so he must be an actor. But do you know what I mean? I generally bought into the fact that I— there was one point where I thought, I gotta ask Steven if that’s the real Mike Wallace or something, you know, because I mean, my mind, he just, he played this part.

[00:11:47] Stephen: Beautiful. There is though, I’ll give you a little preview. There is one person in the film that plays themselves, and I’ll tell you more about him later. But Christopher Plummer was in The Sound of Music, remember? So he was, uh, you know, with opposite Julie Andrews. That kind of was his signature role, and then had a massive career, was in All the Money in the World. He was in All the Money in the World. That was a controversial choice.

[00:12:09] Trevor: Slow down, are you talking Mike Wallace in this? No, Christopher Plummer.

[00:12:14] Stephen: Christopher Plummer plays Mike Wallace.

[00:12:16] Trevor: Yes. So that’s why I know him, because I’ve seen that movie so many times.

[00:12:19] Stephen: The Sound of Music.

[00:12:20] Trevor: Yes, I know.

[00:12:20] Stephen: Wow. He was opposite Julie Andrews. He played Captain von Trapp. Wow.

[00:12:20] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:12:25] Trevor: Yeah, I’ve seen it.

[00:12:27] Stephen: So you did it.

[00:12:28] Trevor: But that’s why in my head I’m like, I know this guy.

[00:12:31] Stephen: Of course you know him.

[00:12:32] Trevor: I see that movie every 3 weeks.

[00:12:34] Stephen: The Sound of Music was the movie that inspired this podcast.

[00:12:37] Trevor: I’m an idiot. There we go.

[00:12:39] Stephen: He was also in All the Money in the World. Which was controversial at the time because Kevin Spacey— that was sort of about, uh, the character that he plays. Kevin Spacey had already filmed the movie, and, uh, when all the drama came out, he got cancelled. He was in makeup to make him look old. He got booted. They refilmed it with Christopher Plummer in that role. He was already old. So, and, uh, yes, that was it. Uh, he was also in another movie called Beginners. And another movie, he’s actually starred opposite Al Pacino before. Oh, there’s a really good movie, a hidden gem, Danny Collins, it’s called. Al Pacino plays this aging rock star, aging—

[00:13:19] Trevor: what’s it called?

[00:13:20] Stephen: Danny Collins.

[00:13:21] Trevor: Danny Collins.

[00:13:22] Stephen: And Christopher Plummer plays his agent, like his manager. Okay, that’s a really good movie. We’ll get to that as well. Anyway, before we do that, let’s talk about Hisense. And Hisense have just released their new mini LED RGB TVs, and they have a range for everyone. The, the new technology— I think the, the assumption is new tech’s going to cost a lot of money, and that, that is true for maybe the flagship models, but Hisense wanted to make this, this new tech within reach of more customers, and that’s why they introduced the UR8 range of RGB mini LED TVs. They’re available in 55-inch, 65, 75, and 85-inch, and surprisingly affordable even though they have this brand new RGB Mini LED technology, which basically means that the colors are produced at the backlight level, resulting in richer, purer, truer color, uh, really great color volume. And you will notice the improvement on top of the picture quality. Of course, they do have 2.1.2 multi-channel surround sound. That’s one thing I like about Hisense TVs— the audio quality of their TVs out of the box is remarkable. And if you’re a gamer, they’ve got native 180Hz game mode And there’s a HiView AI Engine RGB running the whole show, making the picture and the audio as best as it can be. And this is also an IMAX Enhanced TV too, so you can watch IMAX programs on it as well. Well worth a check if you’re in the market for a new TV. Check out the Hisense UR8 range at your local store or check them out online, hisense.com.au.

[00:15:13] Stephen: The opening of this movie was a bit, a little bit odd where it’s, you’re the chara— it’s like the person He’s sort of got a, like a blindfold on.

[00:15:13] Movie Audio: They’re driven, someone’s being driven somewhere.

[00:15:13] Trevor: That’s right.

[00:15:15] Trevor: You don’t have no idea who it is.

[00:15:16] Stephen: Yeah. And then we see that it’s actually Lowell Bergman and he, we find out he’s an investigative producer for CBS’s 60 Minutes. He’s blindfolded, driven to a secret location.

[00:15:28] Trevor: You get a sense it’s the Middle East.

[00:15:30] Stephen: True that. And he’s there to secure an interview for journalist Mike Wallace and he’s trying to negotiate the whole arrangement.

[00:15:41] Movie Audio: [Bergman negotiates interview with Middle Eastern contact — final agreement reached]

[00:16:23] Stephen: So, and he was all still blindfolded when he was talking to me, by the way. And then when he—

[00:16:27] Trevor: remember, he left the room, he goes, he keeps talking to him, he’s like, hello, you still there? And the cool part about this is it’s It’s detailed enough that there’s another bloke in the room blindfolded who’s like the, uh, the engineer for the, for 60 Minutes, who then goes, okay, we’re going to check the power. Like, yeah, you didn’t need to include that, but it’s detailed enough that they absolutely would need that because they’re in a foreign country and they’ve got to work out what they need for the shoot.

[00:16:47] Stephen: So what that demonstrates is that Bergman, he’s pretty gritty, he’s committed to getting the story.

[00:16:53] Trevor: It’s a very strange opening, I’d say 10, maybe 20 minutes, because you don’t understand the timeline. I get it that what they’re doing is exposition. They’re trying to give credibility to all these people, but you don’t understand, are these timelines happening at the same time? Are they flashbacks? And I don’t think it matters. I think it’s just about the fact that it’s proving his journalistic credentials and whatnot.

[00:17:16] Stephen: There’s a terrific shot which we’ll hopefully remember for the wire. Thank God I got a big screen. But do you remember when he takes his blindfold off and he walks towards a curtain and opens the window?

[00:17:26] Stephen: And then you see Beirut in front of them. Yeah, because my first thought was, there’s your background. Okay, that’s a pretty good shot right there. Uh, next up, we’re introduced to Dr. Jeffrey Wigand, a chief scientist at BMW, who’s abruptly fired by the CEO Thomas Sanderfor. The reason is vague. We don’t know. We see him packing up traditional, uh, you know, someone with a box in their hand walking out of—

[00:17:26] Trevor: Yes.

[00:17:52] Trevor: normally in a TV or movie show indicates you’re on your way, leaving.

[00:17:56] Trevor: They’re not going for lunch.

[00:17:56] Stephen: They’re out of there.

[00:17:57] Stephen: That’s right.

[00:17:58] Trevor: So he leaves the building suddenly stripped of his identity and his livelihood because his wife comes to the window of the car at one point and she goes, why are your boxes in there? And he goes, where else would you want me to put them? That’s my audio. That’s hilarious.

[00:18:09] Stephen: But he’s— but at home we know he’s got a— he’s got a couple of daughters, he’s married, he’s got a house. But his daughters, they don’t understand what’s going on. But yeah, his wife, as you said, notices something.

[00:18:23] Movie Audio: [Wigand’s wife discovers his office boxes in the car — he reveals he’s been fired]

[00:19:14] Trevor: See, it’s funny because you don’t You don’t know him before this incident, right?

[00:19:19] Trevor: So you don’t understand whether he’s acting out of shock, he’s been fired or whether this is his personality because there’s this weird dynamic. I’m gonna call it autistic style language from him where he’s like, “They’re my boxes from work.” He does admit later on to Bergman that his communication skills aren’t up.

[00:19:41] Stephen: Yeah, they’re a bit different. Do you know what I mean?

[00:19:42] Trevor: Like for someone on the spectrum, that’s exactly what they would do. They’d be like, “They’re my boxes from work. Why are you asking me that?” And it’s only later that he just casually says, you know, this is— I’ve been fired. He also admits later on to having to— struggling to communicate with his wife. You know, he talks about it a couple of times. And so you realize this is his personality. And so what I now, having watched this, I want to see documentaries about this guy because I want to now know how well Russell Crowe played this guy.

[00:20:07] Stephen: Well, I’ll tell you now, there’s a lot of stuff about him online. And the actual— I was going to save this for later in the show, but the actual interview that he does on 60 Minutes, you can watch on YouTube.

[00:20:17] Trevor: Excellent.

[00:20:18] Stephen: And Russell Crowe nails it.

[00:20:20] Trevor: Yeah, right.

[00:20:21] Stephen: If you put a plan side by side, you think, wow, wow, amazing. So we know that he’s, he’s been fired. But now cut to Bergman, who suddenly receives an anonymous package containing highly technical redacted documents regarding Philip Morris’s research. So he was— well, he wants an expert to translate it into plain English. So he calls the FDA. He’s got obviously got a contact there.

[00:20:48] Trevor: And that’s the other thing you find through this movie about Bergman is connected.

[00:20:53] Stephen: Yes.

[00:20:54] Trevor: Like this is a bloke with decades of experience with contacts everywhere.

[00:20:57] Stephen: Or later on in the film, without spoiling everything, he calls the FDA guy. They’re either about to— they’re searching for the Unabomber.

[00:21:06] Trevor: The FBI guy. Yeah, that’s right.

[00:21:08] Stephen: That’s what we hear more. But the guy from the FDA, he says he recommends Jeffrey Wigand.

[00:21:14] Trevor: Yep.

[00:21:14] Stephen: So Weigand and Bergman do a little fax tagging. Did you see?

[00:21:18] Trevor: So funny.

[00:21:18] Stephen: He assumed, I think Jeffrey Weigand says, he says, I can’t talk. I think he’s probably thinking that he’s a reporter asking about his own situation. And he goes, look, I can’t talk about it. Let’s meet anyway. And they agree to their initial meeting was in Louisville when Weigand is a bit defensive, bit paranoid, and he lets him know that he’s bound by a very strict confidentiality agreement.

[00:21:45] Movie Audio: [Wigand and Bergman’s first meeting — Wigand reveals he worked at Brown & Williamson and is bound by a confidentiality agreement]

[00:23:07] Trevor: See, that conversation is the first time, if you reflect on it now, you go, he desperately wants to tell his story. Yeah. He desperately wants to explain.

[00:23:14] Stephen: Well, Bergman picks up on that. He picks up.

[00:23:15] Trevor: I think Bergman remembers that moment where he goes, this is the tip of the iceberg. This issue is dropping the bucket.

[00:23:22] Stephen: He says dropping the bucket.

[00:23:23] Trevor: Because all the way through, Wygant wants the world to know but can’t because he’s, you know, absolutely strict on his confidentiality agreement.

[00:23:33] Stephen: Journalist of the years Bergman’s picked up on it. He senses he’s carrying this enormous, dangerous secret. But Wygant is called back to BMW, B&W, Brown Williamson, to sign a tighter gag order.

[00:23:50] Movie Audio: [B&W demands Wigand sign a tighter NDA — Wigand pushes back angrily: “Fuck me? Well, fuck you.”]

[00:25:01] Stephen: So yeah, he’s, uh, not going to get pushed around, old Wygant. But yeah, it just— that sort of sets the tone for, okay, here’s what he’s in for, this constant threat of litigation harassment, you know.

[00:25:15] Trevor: So, and you know, he goes, he flies off the handle, he goes and goes to a payphone and rings Bergman and blows up because he ratted him out. But, you know, I don’t know what you’re talking about. But it does make you go, well, hang on a minute, so they’re following this guy, they’re watching him.

[00:25:28] Stephen: They know when he went to the driving range. Yeah, that’s sort of coming up next week.

[00:25:32] Trevor: That was— but I’m saying just in that first, they were aware of that first meeting, for crying out loud.

[00:25:36] Stephen: Well, no, they weren’t though. I think that was a coincidence. No, no, I reckon it’s coincidence. I think they were. And also the other question I had earlier too, like, who sent the documents to The Philip Morris documents, where’s that?

[00:25:47] Trevor: Well, that’s just a random source, you know, some whistleblower. Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:52] Trevor: I think they were following him. I think they were watching him and they knew that he met with—

[00:25:57] Stephen: Okay, well, I didn’t get that impression, but come to think of it, that’s probably how— why they— so that’s why they did the second gag.

[00:26:06] Trevor: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, 100%. Geez.

[00:26:09] Stephen: Okay, now The— he’s— remember when after that meeting when he stormed out, remember he goes to the driving range?

[00:26:17] Trevor: Yeah, and there’s a bloke in a suit.

[00:26:19] Stephen: He’s apparently not a bad golfer, he’s in real life. And, and, um, and Ross Crowe, not a bad swing, but, uh, he sees a bloke here in a full suit.

[00:26:27] Trevor: Although Russ, uh, Wiegand was in a shirt, but the other bloke’s wearing a suit jacket as well.

[00:26:32] Stephen: Yeah, that’s weird. Uh, and he’s becoming even more paranoid But Bergman goes to see Wygand to reassure him.

[00:26:41] Movie Audio: [Bergman confronts Wigand at the driving range — insists he didn’t burn him, pushes him to consider going public]

[00:29:18] Trevor: Fair point. Yeah, it is.

[00:29:19] Stephen: But again, Bergman thinks he’d be a great source for a story on 60 Minutes. He’s always thinking, it’s like all good journos are always thinking about the story. And he has, but though he has to convince his colleagues.

[00:29:35] Movie Audio: [Bergman pitches Wigand to the 60 Minutes team — Wallace calls him “the ultimate insider”]

[00:30:37] Stephen: That’s Mike Wallace, Christopher Plummer. And that brings up a good point. He said he’s public interest. He mentioned, if there’s a defect on a plane, you’re not gonna hide that.

[00:30:48] Trevor: But it’s a simple question. If you’re a plane engineer that got sacked but had to sign a confidentiality agreement, you don’t wanna lose your money. That’s the challenge, right?

[00:30:59] Stephen: Exactly, yeah.

[00:30:59] Trevor: He’s got a wife and kids to feed. To afford.

[00:31:02] Stephen: But hence the legal system where if there is a way for you to— for the public benefit, if it’s for public safety, then that gag order should be illegal.

[00:31:12] Trevor: Oh, interesting.

[00:31:14] Stephen: So Bergman’s making moves here. He convinces Wygand, although first of all Wygand takes a job as a high school chemistry and Japanese teacher. He’s fluent in Japanese, by the way, in real life. Yeah, so that’s a massive pay cut for him. His daughter suffers from severe asthma, so he’s losing the possibility of losing corporate health insurance is really a worry.

[00:31:35] Trevor: Yeah, which they get nice little, just little establishing things earlier where she’s having—

[00:31:39] Stephen: Maybe she had a little asthma attack.

[00:31:40] Trevor: He explains it to her. So that initiates the importance of the health cover. Obviously most people know that America is rubbish for health. So you need to work with a place that has health cover.

[00:31:49] Stephen: You need to work for a company. Correct. Bergman convinces Wygant that the only way to protect himself is to go public.

[00:31:58] Movie Audio: [Bergman urges Wigand to go public — tense back-and-forth about power, sacrifice and whose word means anything]

[00:33:14] Stephen: So they’re getting close, but what puts him over the top is when he finds a little bullet in his mailbox.

[00:33:21] Movie Audio: Yeah.

[00:33:22] Stephen: And later he spots a stranger watching his house from a car. Wygant’s getting worried and he’s thinking, you know what, stuff this.

[00:33:30] Movie Audio: [Wigand calls Bergman — death threats, bullet in mailbox — he says “I’m done. I want to go on the record right now.”]

[00:34:04] Stephen: So he’s ready to rock and roll. So they fly him into New York, and interestingly, he didn’t tell his wife that they’re taping an interview. They went to dinner, remember? And he goes, you never told her that we’re doing this.

[00:34:15] Trevor: There’s a line where he walks away because she’s left the table Yeah. And he gets up and he goes, I was going to tell her, but I struggle to communicate with her. I struggle to work out how. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:26] Trevor: There’s that. But that’s, that’s, it goes back to that. I think at the spectrum level, like he’s a scientist. He’s really, I know. Most scientists are off the charts, but it’s a genuine thing. Like, I’ll be honest. I think there’s times where I’ve got something I need to tell my wife. It’s like, you know, there’s probably, this is easier just to be a text message. I don’t want to have a conversation. You know, he’s just, he knows. Well, you know, He knows that it’s going to be a conflict.

[00:34:52] Trevor: He knows that if he told her back at home that he was going to go to— she’d be like, I’m not getting on the plane.

[00:34:52] Stephen: Of course.

[00:34:56] Stephen: Yeah, righto, fair enough. Yeah, fair call. Well, anyway, Bergman brings in Mike Wallace to interview Wygant under the lights in New York. He delivers some devastating testimony.

[00:35:10] Movie Audio: [Wigand’s 60 Minutes interview — perjury by tobacco CEOs, nicotine as a drug delivery device, ammonia chemistry impact boosting]

[00:36:32] Movie Audio: Boom.

[00:36:33] Trevor: It’s fascinating.

[00:36:34] Stephen: Fascinating.

[00:36:34] Trevor: Like, I find this fascinating now, and it makes me want to do more research because in America, nicotine pouches that people just suck on are unbelievable.

[00:36:41] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:36:41] Trevor: And so it’s like you can literally just buy now the delivery system that you put in your mouth instead of having a smoke.

[00:36:47] Stephen: Just take— go straight to the car.

[00:36:48] Trevor: How is that not illegal? It’s wild.

[00:36:50] Stephen: Wigan is then asked, uh, why he was fired.

[00:36:54] Movie Audio: [Wigand explains the coumarin memo — Sandifer fired him for “poor communication skills” — Wallace asks if he wishes he hadn’t come forward]

[00:38:37] Trevor: Yeah, I think it’s worth it. So this is where he’s like, just—

[00:38:39] Stephen: yeah, like I said, if you watch this on, on YouTube YouTube that what you see in the movie, you see it on the— it’s identical.

[00:38:48] Trevor: Wow.

[00:38:49] Stephen: Even the tilt of his head and even he stumbled over a word, the same, exactly the same.

[00:38:54] Trevor: Wow. Yeah, that’s so good.

[00:38:55] Stephen: So the problem now is they’ve got to bypass the NDA.

[00:39:00] Trevor: They’ve got the interview. And what they essentially realize is if he— if they air the interview, he’s broken his agreement. But if they can get what he says in the interview on the public record, yes, then airing the interview doesn’t breach the contract because it’s on the public record.

[00:39:11] Stephen: They have it.

[00:39:12] Trevor: Smart. They’re going to go to—

[00:39:13] Stephen: there’s a Mississippi state lawsuit.

[00:39:16] Trevor: The attorney general’s like, yeah, up against the tobacco companies.

[00:39:20] Stephen: There’s two anti-tobacco lawyers, Scruggs and Motley. They plan to depose Wygant in the Mississippi state lawsuit against the tobacco companies, and if a judge orders him to speak, the court then order supersedes the NDA.

[00:39:35] Trevor: Yeah.

[00:39:35] Stephen: Now, um, Wygant arrives to testify, but Brown and Williamson lawyers serve him at the airport with a temporary restraining order.

[00:39:43] Trevor: It’s funny because they’re walking through the airport and they’ve got He’s got security around him and stuff. And he goes, Jeffrey Wigand. There’s one guy that kind of goes to give him like a pin box and they push him away. But there’s a guy just sitting down at a gate and he says his name and you think he’s just an old mate, but then he throws a book at him, which is his— He’s been served.

[00:40:02] Stephen: He says, you’ve been served.

[00:40:05] Movie Audio: [Wigand is served with a Kentucky restraining order at the airport — lawyers explain he risks jail if he testifies — Wigand agonises over his family’s welfare]

[00:41:24] Trevor: It’s fascinating because my first thought was move your family to Mississippi. Mississippi.

[00:41:31] Stephen: Yeah, so you just don’t have to go back. Yeah, that’s right. Uh, my, uh, my little interjections are going to be called the inside scoop.

[00:41:38] Movie Audio: Okay, not bad.

[00:41:39] Trevor: Okay, that’s not bad.

[00:41:39] Stephen: Insider, you know.

[00:41:41] Trevor: I got you.

[00:41:42] Stephen: Uh, my inside scoop here is that Mike Moore, one of the voices you heard there, he’s the Attorney General of Mississippi, and that was actually him. Oh wow. Played himself for the scenes involving the lawsuit.

[00:41:54] Trevor: What’s the gap between this in real life and the movie?

[00:41:57] Stephen: I think it was about 4 years. Okay, so it’s pretty fresh. So I think the payouts all happened in 1998 and this film was released in ’99.

[00:42:07] Trevor: Wow. Yeah.

[00:42:09] Stephen: So Wygand, after much contemplation, decides he’s going to testify.

[00:42:14] Trevor: You can tell, like, he’s out looking at the water and the sun and just contemplating it. But I me, honestly, all the way through, I’m thinking he’s going to do it. Yeah, it’s too much. It’ll play on his mind too much.

[00:42:27] Stephen: I agree. Yeah, brave, brave of him to do it. The Brown— but they’re in the courtroom and the Brown and Williamson lawyer repeatedly objects, shouting that the testimony is a violation of trade. But his man Ron Motley steps in.

[00:42:41] Movie Audio: [Motley tears into the B&W lawyers in the courtroom — “This is the sovereign state of Mississippi’s proceeding. I’m going to take my witness’s testimony whether the hell you like it or not.”]

[00:44:05] Stephen: Boom! Mic drop. Love it. Um, Wygant successfully places his explosive testimony into the public court record. And another inside scoop for you: the courtroom where they filmed that deposition was the actual courtroom where the real Wygant deposition was given.

[00:44:25] Trevor: Cool. Real spot. Funny because it didn’t—

[00:44:27] Stephen: it’s like, well, there’s no judge or jury, right?

[00:44:29] Trevor: It’s just a deposition. It’s just a room. It’s not really— yes, uh, your, your traditional, you know, glorified outside, you know, place with the courtroom. It’s just a space in the court building, probably. Correct.

[00:44:39] Stephen: Now, meanwhile, back in New York, the legal department at CBS—

[00:44:44] Trevor: because at this point, you know, Bergman and Co are thinking, we’ve done it, we’ve got it on the record, we can now air the interview, let’s edit and let’s go—

[00:44:52] Stephen: but they’re worried about being sued for— they get called up to the big suits, the boardroom.

[00:44:59] Movie Audio: [CBS legal team raises “tortious interference” — warns that airing the story could expose CBS to a lawsuit big enough for B&W to own CBS]

[00:46:31] Stephen: Bergman is outraged, and the discussion continues. Is this Alice in Wonderland?

[00:46:38] Movie Audio: [CBS legal warns airing the story could cost CBS the Westinghouse merger — Bergman erupts: “I hear shut the segment down, cut Wygant loose, obey orders, and fuck off.”]

[00:50:57] Trevor: Fair call. Uh, it’s a fascinating kind of discourse from Bergman because he’s, he’s less about about, he doesn’t often say the public should hear this story. He doesn’t often say this adds credibility. He’s just trying to protect the fact that he’s a man of his word. Absolutely. And he put, he put Wiegand through this and he wants to see it through. Do you know what I mean? Like he’s not actually pushing for the story.

[00:51:20] Stephen: He’s pushing for his word and reputation. You’ll hear this bit here now where, you know, he does sort of spell it out, the logic behind his argument.

[00:51:32] Movie Audio: [Bergman’s monologue — “Is it newsworthy? Yes. Are we gonna air it? Of course not. Why? Because he is telling the truth.” — Wallace sides with management]

[00:52:48] Trevor: Mike, that was a massive shock because Bergman basically relied on the fact that Wallace is with him every step of the way. Absolutely supports him. But now he goes, you know what, I’m with them.

[00:52:57] Stephen: Yeah. So he sides with corporate and basically just abandoning Bergman to— well, he reveals later to protect his own legacy. Yeah, but he gets worse. B, Brown and Williamson launched a massive multimillion-dollar smear campaign. Yeah, there’s all this leaking of 500-page dossier detailing misdemeanors and exaggerations, personal flaws, previous wives, and pasts. So they’re all getting all this stuff. So broken by the stress and the fear, his wife leaves him, takes the kids with her. Uh, Bergman finds out and calls Wygand. You ever bounce a check, lol?

[00:53:37] Movie Audio: [Bergman calls Wigand — it’s not about truth, it’s about destroying the man — Wigand, alone in a hotel, repeats: “I told the truth.”]

[00:54:19] Stephen: So he’s shattered there, but Bergman hears the Wall Street journalist circling the Wygant smear campaign based on those smear documents. And there you go. And he’s, uh, he goes, he’s got a contact. He goes and meets the reporter.

[00:54:33] Movie Audio: [Bergman meets Wall Street Journal reporter — pushes back on the smear campaign, asks him to hold his deadline]

[00:54:56] Stephen: So that’s good that he had that club in his bag, but there are reports now, uh, that 60 Minutes is cutting the Wygant interview. So that leaked, obviously. Obviously, obviously Lowell has sort of—

[00:55:08] Trevor: yes, yeah, there’s a little bit of insider out here.

[00:55:10] Stephen: Definitely, they’re both insiders. Mike Wallace gives an interview about the situation and, you know, with the allegations of cutting the interview and why. But he’s angered that his, his interview was cut.

[00:55:25] Movie Audio: [Wallace explodes at CBS management for cutting his interview — “destroying the most respected, the highest rated, the most profitable show on this network”]

[00:56:11] Trevor: It’s good because basically he went into this news interview to try and, you know, try to appease Bergman to show a little bit of the story for the public before the cutback version went to air, and he’s now pissed because they just put a yes on the air.

[00:56:25] Stephen: Yeah, it’s very Very good. Wygand has now checked into a hotel and he watches the gutted 60 Minutes episode, uh, gutted himself. Yeah. Bergman calls the hotel worried about Wygand, uh, you remember, he gets to go, I tell him to get on the fucking phone, remember? And he gets—

[00:56:41] Trevor: they open the door and you’re thinking, is he dead? Has he killed himself? Like, that’s what you’re meant to think, isn’t it?

[00:56:46] Stephen: But all of a sudden he gets up and he grabs the phone.

[00:56:49] Movie Audio: [Bergman and Wigand’s phone call from the surf — “I’m running out of heroes, man. Guys like you are in short supply.”]

[00:58:11] Stephen: You might hear the ocean and the water sloshing around. You actually had to step out into the surf to get better reception. Yes. So yeah, pretty downtime there. But exiled, sort of Bergman’s on a bit of a forced vacation here. He said, but he sort of thinks, you know what, I’ll get mine. He sort of wages a huge— He’s basically going, you know what, I’ve had enough of CBS.

[00:58:32] Trevor: I’m moving on to do my own thing. I’m going to work this out. And he just works out a way to play this.

[00:58:38] Stephen: He leaks the entire story of CBS’s self-censorship, corporate greed, and why Ganzini actual testimony to the New York Times.

[00:58:47] Movie Audio: [Bergman calls the New York Times — CBS Corporate leaned on CBS News to kill the interview — story runs on page one]

[01:00:16] Stephen: So he does, goes ahead with it, um, and the story runs on the front page, humiliating CBS executives, exposing their cowardice. Wallace confronts him about the leak.

[01:00:32] Movie Audio: [Wallace confronts Bergman — Bergman: “I never left a source hung out to dry, ever.” — Wallace admits his concern is his legacy]

[01:01:18] Trevor: It’s a good little line there from him where he talks about, you know, essentially worrying about your legacy. Yeah, you don’t think about it during the, you know, pinnacle of your career.

[01:01:33] Stephen: Maybe not, but CBS is now publicly embarrassed, and after a blow-by-blow of what happened has been exposed.

[01:01:42] Movie Audio: [Bergman confronts management in the hallway — “We caved. It’s foolish. Simply dead wrong.” — CBS is forced to air the interview]

[01:03:04] Stephen: Do you remember in that audio he mentions the Wall Street Journal? Remember the Wall Street Journal had the report they were going to publish, take for granted that it was all true? Yes. Remember he met the reporter as well and said, mate, push the deadline. He goes, I’m not pushing the deadline because you say so. Then he showed, he refuted all of that claims, and the Wall Street Journal story turned into the, the outrageous smear campaign. Yes. So that was before the New York Times leak as Now CBS is now forced to air the interview. Of course. Mike Wallace gets on, he goes, here’s the interview we should have shown you. And the actual 60 Minutes interview, here’s another inside scoop, with Jeffrey Wigand and Mike Wallace aired on CBS the night of February 4th, 1996. And as I said, you can watch it on YouTube. It is filmed identically to the original. A great end sequence sees Bergman leaving outside the revolving doors, and then he turns into slow motion. And I’ve got to play the music from this little sequence. Now while the music’s playing, I want to talk about the little end credits that run above this. Subsequent to the events before, the tobacco industry in ’98 settled the lawsuits filed against it by Mississippi and 49 other states. Wow. For $246 billion in 1998. 1996, Dr. Wygant was named Teacher of the Year in Kentucky. Currently lives in South Carolina. There you go.

[01:04:43] Trevor: oh, that’s right, yes, the Sheik. Hey, what?

[01:04:46] Movie Audio: [Wallace: “I’m getting two things: pissed off and curious.” / Bergman tips off Unabomber arrest / final scene — “I got broken here. Doesn’t go back together again.”]

[01:06:29] Stephen: Great line. Now my How Did That Happen is fact v fiction. Yeah, Jeffrey— Dr. Jeffrey Wigand, uh, after much Googling and research, I found has his own website. And there’s a frequently asked questions section.

[01:06:43] Trevor: Yeah, ’cause he’s sick of hearing from people.

[01:06:45] Stephen: And there was also an email address. And I emailed him and asked him some questions that weren’t answered in his FAQs. And I’ll go through, if I can remember what I asked him, I’ll go through that. But here’s what he said about what happened in the movie. Did you really have armed guards? Remember he brought in security? Yes, they had two ex-Secret Service agents. Um, who they escorted him to school, took his daughters out to play, and they were always there watching him. Uh, and in the high school he was teaching at during that time was forced to put a guard on my classroom door because of all the physical threats. Wow. Uh, is it true that the movie is just a fictionalized drama? The movie is true to the psychological, emotional, and physical, physiological, philosophical aspects of the time. It is more of an encapsulated docudrama more than a Hollywoodized drama. The movie combines multiple historical events into a single scene, coalesces several years into events into 2 hours and 38 minutes, yet remains socially relevant. Uh, can you name some other facts in the movie? Was I followed by an ex-FBI agent in the employ of Brown Williamson? Yes. Which leads to what you were thinking early in the movie. Was there a bullet found in my mailbox in January ’96? Yes. Did someone threaten to harm my family if I told the truth about the inner workings of the tobacco company I work for? Yes. Did the tobacco industry attempt to undermine my integrity with a 500-page smear campaign? Yes. So all of that’s true. Now I asked him, was he offered any other jobs in science? Remember how he was fired? He— and he didn’t answer me that. I also asked, how did he— in his FAQ he says he met Russell Crowe, but he doesn’t say— my question was, how do you think Russell Crowe portrayed you? Was it accurate? And yeah, I didn’t get a response, but if we do get a response, I’ll bring it up.

[01:09:11] Trevor: That is that first meeting where he’s sitting on a chair reading a newspaper and there’s a shot you can see him in the foreground on the chair and then Wygant standing in the lobby kind of area. It’s just a really nice—

[01:09:21] Stephen: I remember he said to you guys, I’ll be the black reader in the New York Times. Yeah, it was amazing. The business. Now some facts here. We all know this Wygant interview with the former 60 Minutes producer sparked the public outrage. But there was actually an award-winning investigative journalistic piece before this by another 60 Minutes producer, Walt Bogdanovich. He was working with ABC News at the time, and he exposed the tobacco manufacturer’s secret manipulation of nicotine, addicting millions of, uh, over a year before Wiegand’s interview. So Bogdanovich’s shocking report in February ’94 really boosted the Food and Drug Administration to launch its tobacco investigation, which led to Mississippi and those other states. So this prompted Congress to convene a hearing where 7 tobacco chief executives lied under oath. 7 dwarfs. That was, that was where they lied under oath. And it led to the filing of the first ever class action on behalf of injured and addicted smokers. Wow. But get this, Bogdanich’s reward was short-lived. ABC sold him out when Philip Morris bullied them into settling a $10 billion libel suit. So, uh, the— this was despite the network having reported the truth about cigarette companies’ manufacturing practices. Bogdanich refused to sign the false apology, and his report remains the biggest story in a tobacco war since the 1964 Surgeon General report. Wow. Uh, Every Day Is a School Day, with some solid lessons and themes. I think corporate influence.

[01:10:59] Trevor: I think just generally school day, there’s a— you learn a lot about journalism in this. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, unfortunately, it’s old school now though. A lot of it is pretty much disappeared. But you also learn about the process of making it. Like there’s a lot goes into a 5-minute story on the TV.

[01:11:15] Stephen: Absolutely. As you know, find it and do it.

[01:11:17] Trevor: So I thought that was fascinating.

[01:11:19] Stephen: Yeah. Well, the ethics around media I think was a big thing too, but also morals. Public truth v power, institutional power. Like, remember we were talking about the gag order? If it’s gonna suppress something that’s in the public interest.

[01:11:31] Trevor: I think also the, you know, in terms of learning a lesson, it’s, you know, this is a guy, Bergman, who had his own morals and standards. He didn’t hold, he didn’t send people out to dry. He stuck to his word. The amount of times he mentioned he’s a man of his word was countless.

[01:11:47] Stephen: Best use of the pause button. I’ve got a couple here. I can imagine you do. On his way to lunch with the 60 Minutes crew, crew, Don picks up a New York Times. The headline on the front: Jury Clears Simpson in Double Murder. Yes, I saw that. Yes, nation divided on verdict. That was on Wednesday, October 4th, 1995.

[01:12:05] Trevor: I did notice that headline.

[01:12:07] Stephen: Yes. If you also had your— if you were keeping your eye on the yellow taxi in the, in the movie, there’s 3 separate occasions where a yellow taxi is required. It’s the same one. One.

[01:12:19] Trevor: If you pause— funny, because I saw the number on it and I didn’t, I didn’t— the number on the roof, the same one.

[01:12:24] Stephen: But yeah, the roof and the door, 1T80. Wow. Now the odds of that happening in New York, the same cab 3 times, is there’s 12,000 to 1 at least. Yeah, yeah. Things you might not know, uh, Russell Crowe gained 18 kilos to play Jeffrey Wigand. You notice he was a bit big, largely on a diet of cheeseburgers and bourbon. Love it. Took him 6 weeks to get the weight on, 5 to get rid of it afterwards. His blood pressure and cholesterol were at dangerously high levels, apparently. Mike Wallace, who was 76 years old at the time when the interview was conducted, was played by a then 69-year-old Christopher Plummer, who passed away in 2021. After filming a scene at the school— remember how Russell Crowe had his great hair. He pranked the extras and the classmates by ripping out his hair. It was a realistic gray wig and he just tore it off and they were all, ah, so horrified that he’s going nuts. But, uh, it was, it was a prank. Wow. Uh, this was the first of 3 movies in successive years, that Russell Crowe was nominated for Best Actor. Oh wow. So he was nominated for, um, for Gladiator, Beautiful Mind, well, first for this one, Insider, then Gladiator, then A Beautiful Mind. And I’ve got to tell you, he won it for Gladiator, but I reckon that was his— probably of the three, that was the weakest of his three performances, I reckon. And he won it for— oh, but in my opinion, we haven’t done either of the other two. Uh, no, but we’ll get there. Did you know they’re on the list? Did you notice the gun that he had when he was investigating? Remember the noise outside? Yeah, Smith Wesson .357 Magnum. Hello. And did you also notice that one of Lowell Bergman’s actual Emmy Awards is—

[01:14:12] Trevor: well, yeah, there was a couple of Emmys. There was one in the CBS office as well.

[01:14:16] Stephen: That’s right. Uh, what’s the meme? Is there one here? I told the truth. I think, um, that’s pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do love that when Al Pacino says, is it newsworthy? Yes. Do we air it? Of course not. Yeah, that was pretty good. Uh, By Any Other Name. Yeah, you know the original title for this? Oh, go on. Was Man of the People was the original title. Oh no, I don’t like that. I quite like The Insider, although my other choices were, I got two, Whistleblower, not quite as sexy. No.

[01:14:44] Trevor: Or Where There’s Smoke. I don’t mind that. I was looking for something in between the Vanity Fair article and this and thinking like—

[01:14:53] Stephen: The Man Who Knew Too Much.

[01:14:54] Trevor: Yeah, but like, you know, knowing too much.

[01:14:56] Stephen: Well, ’cause that’s actually the name of an existing movie that exists already, you know. The Man Who Knew Too Much is a movie.

[01:15:00] Trevor: But, you know, finding a gap between it, you know, ’cause I do think that’s a, I’ll get to it, but that’s huge as this knowing too much or having information.

[01:15:12] Stephen: I reckon they couldn’t call it that ’cause there is a famous movie.

[01:15:14] Trevor: No, but I’m saying in between, I wouldn’t have called it The Man Who Knows Too Much. I’m saying call it knowing too much or it’s what you know or, you know, something like that about knowing stuff.

[01:15:24] Stephen: But you would’ve heard on the, my audio that they said he’s the ultimate insider. He’s the insider, and I had to get that in. Yeah, I know. Uh, the one thing you want— I’d get his glasses, Dr. Weigand’s glasses. Yeah. Um, his Audi. Yeah, was he driving an Audi? Yeah, in the early ’70s. Bergman’s mobile phone.

[01:15:42] Trevor: Yeah, any of the mobile phones I would have taken.

[01:15:44] Stephen: His house was pretty nice in, uh, in Kentucky.

[01:15:47] Trevor: Pretty nice. Some of the documents would have been cool.

[01:15:49] Stephen: Yeah, the dossier, uh, maybe with the Yeah, well, what they had—

[01:15:52] Trevor: I’d like the prop newspapers, like, you know, the New York Times and stuff they had. Okay, stuff like that’s cool.

[01:15:58] Stephen: Okay, 3 questions for Trev. Oh, okay, hit me. Were you aware of this story before watching the movie?

[01:16:03] Trevor: Not really, no. I mean, I’m aware of the tobacco issue, but I wasn’t aware of this specific exposé.

[01:16:08] Stephen: Okay, question 2, and I think I know the answer to this: does this make you want to watch other movies based on true stories?

[01:16:14] Trevor: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, you know, you’ve got me at hello here.

[01:16:16] Stephen: Yeah, there’s a few, uh, we’ve got a few coming up. I’m promising a lot, and I promise you it will will happen. Uh, question 3: too long, too short, or just right?

[01:16:25] Trevor: I do think it was a touch long. Yeah, it didn’t drag for me. It was—

[01:16:29] Stephen: it went in an instant for me. I’m thinking, wow. But I, I— you could have trimmed 15, maybe 10, maybe, maybe. I know that Michael Mann’s a bit indulgent with his scenes where there’s a lot of music playing. He likes to give it air, give the— let the music have it take its effect, you know. Yeah, you could have maybe trimmed some of them down, I think so, or cut them out completely, potentially. But yeah, that’s, that’s his art. He wanted that in there.

[01:16:54] Trevor: Well, you know, he’s an artist at work, you know.

[01:16:56] Stephen: Radio, that is The Insider. Give us your wrap-up and rating. Look, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[01:17:01] Trevor: It’s a great movie, it’s a great story. But my big— this is going to sound ridiculous because I know it’s a story of the tobacco exposé, but as a media nerd, yeah, it’s as much a media story. All I saw was a media story. And the reason I’m going on about man who knew nothing thing is because I think Bergman— the man who knew too much— I think Bergman is also exposed in this movie as a man who knows too much. He has information about things. Well, he’s the one who leaves bubbling. He’s the one, but on everything. And it’s not just about this story. He’s got— remember, there’s a little, little thing where he gets a phone call in bed about Mexico City, something going on down there, and he ends up going, I don’t need that story, and gives it to the newsroom. Yeah, you know, he has information about where the Unabomber is. He has information about how to get to the ayatollah, whoever that was. Like, he has so much information. He’s a man who knows too much.

[01:17:47] Stephen: That’s an interesting observation because I think there’s a parallel between Wygant and Bergman where they’re both insiders. That’s right. That’s, and that’s my point. Bergman’s the polished insider who knows everything, and Bergman— Wygant sort of, he’s the trainee insider who’s not.

[01:18:04] Trevor: That’s why I was fascinated by this. Interesting parallel. Yeah, as a parallel— two parallel stories about two people who just have so much knowledge.

[01:18:12] Stephen: How didn’t Pacino get nominated for an Oscar for this too? Was only Russell Crowe got nominated.

[01:18:16] Trevor: Like, Pacino— so enjoyed it, loved it.

[01:18:18] Stephen: What’s your story? 8.5? I’m 9.5. You’re one away from nearly perfect.

[01:18:23] Trevor: Nearly perfect. That’s huge for you as a hidden gem.

[01:18:25] Stephen: I reckon if it was a bit shorter. Yeah, it would have made—

[01:18:28] Trevor: if it was shorter, would have made me a 9 for me.

[01:18:29] Stephen: Yeah. Okay, so you’re a 9, I’m a 9, you’re an 8.5, 8.5, and I’m an 9.5. All right, next week. Yep, we are watching Dead Calm. Hang on, uh, Nicole Kidman?

[01:18:41] Trevor: Correct. I’ve seen so many times when they talk about Sam Neill.

[01:18:44] Stephen: Oh really? Okay. Yeah, Dead Calm, directed by Philip Noyce. I think it was released in 1989. Right now, your question is— here’s your millionaire question: there’s a supporting actor in the movie who would go on to star in Titanic. Who is that? Okay, is it A, Leonardo DiCaprio? Is it Kate Winslet? Is it Billy Zane or Kathy Bates?

[01:19:14] Trevor: Hmm, I have no idea. I think it’s either Kathy Bates or— what’s the— Kate Winslet. You tell me. You tell me. Have I narrowed the 50/50? Yeah. So I don’t know then. It’s Leonardo DiCaprio. No. Okay, I’ve got no idea. Billy Zane.

[01:19:28] Stephen: Never heard of him. Billy Zane. Remember he was the— never heard of him. Rose’s fiancé, the rich guy. Yeah, he’s in this.

[01:19:34] Trevor: If he was sitting over there, I would know his name.

[01:19:36] Stephen: He also played the Phantom in the movie. Also really helpful. That won’t be on the show because it was a bit of a bomb, that movie. Oh, okay.

[01:19:45] Trevor: I think that’s the first one you’ve declared we’re not doing.

[01:19:47] Stephen: That won’t be on the show. Wow. Unless we run out of movies. Yeah, it’ll be more than that. Anyway, well, look, I’m glad you enjoyed, uh, The Insider. I love the rewatch and love discussing it with you. Uh, looking forward to Dead Calm next week. Bring it on!